I used to work for the Peel board of education. I basically did custodial work. I worked in schools from J. K. to 5, and 9 to 13 as well.

No one in the schools minded that you had your face tattooed or anything like that?

No, I think I'm a pretty nice person and pretty hard to hate.

Then how did you move to start doing piercing and branding professionally?

My friend went to get a tattoo, and I went along. It's a Harley Davidson tattoo actually--I got a Harley and it's a pretty amazing feeling. The fact you can travel anywhere you want to. It was my first vehicle, but I sold it to buy an autoclave. That's far more exciting anyway. If I hadn't got autoclave, I wouldn't be doing anything I'm doing now.

Anyway, I got my first tattoo, and I thought what an amazing art form--you create this permanent art on someone's body. I bought tattoo equipment from Spaulding, and starting doing tattoos on myself and on friends, but I couldn't really pick it up. It wasn't really what I wanted to do. Piercing was pretty new at the time; this was about 1990. I saw my first tongue piercing on a tattoo artist that I knew, and I saw my first septum piercing on a girl that worked reception at a tattoo studio. I soon as I knew you could get it, I was right there, I wanted my septum pierced. Then I started getting more piercings, and doing a lot of reading on anatomy, and looking through articles on piercing, and of course all the old PFIQ's and stuff like that. Then from there, piercing myself, and my brother, and close friends. I think I was just so picky and so into my work that I started to get a reputation. People knew who I was even though I was far from the city.

Were you working out of your house?

Yes, I was just working out of my house. I had a spare room that I converted into a studio -- I had the autoclave, and a dentist's chair, lots of different photographs of traditional people from all over the world with different modifications. This was at my parent's place.

What did they think?

They were pretty excited. They were happy that I was sober and doing something that I really, really enjoyed.

It got to the point where I was loving it so much that I pretty much knew that that was what I was going to do for the rest of my life. From there I casually went from working for the Peel Board to piercing full time and then I never looked back. Not ever. I had a vision actually... there was a time in my life where I spent a lot of time wondering what I was looking for. And then I had this vision that said that if I followed body modification, and body piercing, that all other aspects of my life would eventually just fall into place. It gave me something to focus on and I spent pretty much all of my time and energy on doing body modifications, and everything did fall into place.

How did this happen? What do you mean by "vision"?

It's hard to explain visions -- it's not quite like a dream, and it's not quite awake. It's just all of a sudden you have this realization. It's as if someone gets half of a book and throws it into your brain in one second -- this vast amount of knowledge just pops in.

Yes -- I consider them visions because they were something that happened outside of me. It wasn't like I just thought, "hmm... this would be a good idea". I do a lot of meditation and a lot of prayer, and I call these visions.

How you got into piercing is easy to understand, because it was around at the time, but what about scarification?

I always put them together. When I got my first tattoo, I asked the tattoo artist, "so, how do you do scarification anyway?", and he didn't know. I thought, he tattooed, shouldn't he know how to do scarification? I asked everybody and nobody even had a clue.

Did you think there were people doing it?

I just assumed there'd have to be! It's a body modification...

Had you seen it?

A little bit. Just in National Geographics and documentaries on tribal groups that had done scarification on themselves. I thought it was amazing.

When they didn't know you went ahead and started?

Yeah. I got my old tattoo guns and cranked them up and tattooed my leg like seven times to see if it would scar. It never really scarred that well, but now in retrospect I know I could do a really good job -- you just have to chew the skin up, but I wasn't doing it well at the time. I'd actually watched someone brand before. It was a pretty neat experience, but I remember looking at the brand and thinking, damn, I could do a way better job than that. It looked somewhat inconsistent and the person was stoned at the time. The person that was branding was stoned and I was thinking, this is irresponsible. They're branding someone and they're wasted at the same time. It wasn't someone's garage, it was a well-respected shop.

I basically got some surgical stainless steel and designed a couple of bits that I thought would work. I designed them as traditional branding tools. I branded a couple of friends of mine. Right away I thought this was so limiting -- you do one strike and that's it. I decided that I wanted to do something a little bit different, not quite the traditional way. I always thought that if you really wanted to bad enough, you could do a portrait on someone's back using my style of branding. It would have to be all done in little pixels. You can do almost anything with branding, you just have to have the skill to do it.

I started trying different little techniques here and there, what worked and what didn't. Eventually I got to the point where I started branding using overlapping strikes. That way you can get a nice consistent line. What I was always told by other branders was once you do the strike, if it's not the way you wanted, you have to leave it anyway. You can come back to it later once it's healed. That didn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. Often with a brand that's a V shape, if the person's skin isn't perfectly flat, then one end of the V will get deeper than the other. Sometimes you just have to give it another little touch just to make it heal evenly. I just got a couple of different tools and started branding the way I do. It evolved that way from the traditional oldschool to my style, which I see a lot like painting.

I really do think it's a lot like painting. When I have my tools in my hand, and that person's skin, and a really nice stencil... that's the beginning. When you start heating up the metal, it's just so much fun... it's like a big paintbrush to me.

Do people normally come to you with a finished design? How much freedom do you usually have as an artist?

Often they come in with things that aren't really brandable. They're too small or too detailed -- they would just become a big blob. So I rework them so they are brandable -- I make them looser, and I make things more symmetrical. People come in with rough sketches and I make them as close to perfect as I can. I get quite a bit of freedom. I like to do larger pieces. Often I'll do things freehand. When we did Sarai's arm, it took me four hours to draw it on, and an hour and forty-five minutes to brand it. Drawing it on was so much fun... "Do you like this?" "No" "Then how about this" "Cool"... It was really exciting.

Is the technical aspect part of the thrill too -- doing a perfect circle?

Yeah, when I actually do my branding I have a game plan, I try to pull it off the best that I can. I'll do this first, and this second, and this third, and this fourth. That's pretty how I see it.

Why do you have to do the strikes in a specific order?

You have to know the skin. When you put a hot piece of metal up to the skin, it shrivels which will distort the stencil. You have to know how to brand it so it distorts kind of in your favour, so that when you're finished it still looks really good.

Your canvas is constantly changing shape as you're painting.

Yeah, you have to really think ahead. You have to look at the whole thing and say how am I going to pull this off and still have it look good.

You learned that through experience?

For me it was just common sense... For sure...

Are there any disadvantages to the overlapping method?

No, not all. I think my work is very consistent.

So the don't overstrike rule that most branders have is pretty much myth?

I just that because they figured it was a burn... "oh my god, you've struck it once just leave it alone". Really, if you think of it as a painting... The end result after I've finished branding it has to be as consistent as possible, so if I have to touch it a little bit in one spot I'm going to do it. It just makes sense. Often a person might flinch a little bit, so the brand doesn't end up being as consistent as all the other brands you've done, so you have to touch it up in spots.

Yeah, I did both the full backpiece and the full sleeve in a day. I don't think I've actually ever had to touch up a brand. It's always been a one-shot deal.

Of all the different types of scarification, do you think that branding is the easiest to get really first-class results with? Is it easier than cutting?

I'd say they're both about the same. You could screw a cutting up by cutting too deep and you could screw a branding up by branding too deep. It's pretty important -- you could really damage someone if you didn't know what you're doing. And everyone's skin is so different. Just because you did one brand on one person, and the skin was so easy, doesn't mean the next guy is going to be so easy. Some people have very dense skin and lots of fat cells, and other people have skin that's very thin, and you can see everything underneath it. Some people's skin burns nicely, and other people's skin doesn't burn really. Some people skin cuts easily, and other's skin you have to work at it. I think branding and cutting are about the same in terms of skill level.

The one thing about a cutting though is you have to be much more meticulous when it comes to sterilization procedures because there's a lot of blood involved. You have to make sure you're not cross-contaminating anything. Ever. You have to be really smart about it. Whereas a branding is completely cauterized. You basically just have to disinfect the skin. You can leave without a bandage because it's not open at all. But you've got to be smart.

You shouldn't just bend a piece of coat hanger wire. I've seen some good stuff done with one, but just because one guy did a good job, doesn't mean it's going to look good next time.

How does someone go about learning to brand? Would you apprentice someone?

I thought about apprenticing somebody, but I'm a real ball- buster, and they'd have to have the same values as I have. They'd have to have to be as picky with sterilization and drawing the perfect stencil. Just because a stencil is perfect, doesn't mean it's going to look good on the body. You may have to redraw that circle on the shoulder by hand to make it look perfect.

I'd be kind of bummed knowing that I taught somebody how to brand and they weren't really as picky as I am. So I don't think it's going to happen any time soon. I've been looking for someone to train to pierce, and I haven't even been able to find someone that I'd like to train for that. It might happen...

You only have your left arm branded since you're right- handed. Do you think you'll ever find anyone else to do your right arm?

I'm not sure. I haven't seen anyone who's work I like -- Even the stuff in magazines I haven't been too impressed with it. I'm not really sure... I'll probably just do it myself. At least I know how consistent my work is. It's probably just going to be a dot pattern because I can't get too complicated with my left hand!

It would be nice if there was someone close to me that I would trust to do that. It's nice to get other people to do work for you, like when people tattoo you. Most of my piercings are self done, but some I did get friends to do. I got a friend to do my industrial because it was really awkward. I did do my two conches myself, and I cut my labret open.

As an artist, how is the experience of doing a brand different than the experience of doing a piercing?

I think when I do a branding, it's much more exciting, it's more meaningful to me, because I think it's more meaningful to them. Not that a piercing can't be meaningful too... But I pierce for a living, so most of the people who come in have only thought about it for a week. But the people who I do branding on have thought about it for a good six month to years. I think probably because they didn't know there was someone out there doing it, but I think also it's more symbolic. They had to think about what they REALLY, REALLY wanted. Often people will come in to get tattooed and they'll say, "what can I get for $60", or "I like that one there, but I can only afford this much". People don't do that when it comes to branding. They've thought about it for a long time and they know what they want.

Pain isn't really an issue for them. Branding clients don't worry if it's going to hurt. When I pierce navels I always here "is this going to hurt?" I don't think any of the people I've branded have even had it be an issue -- they know themselves so well. "I'm going to get branded and I'm excited" -- It's a meaningful day for them. They've thought about it.

At least with my clientele... On a general level, absolutely. People usually come in to me with a really solid idea of what they want to get done. Often people come in for tattoos with the most diverse ideas "I want to get a sun, or maybe a lion, or maybe a dolphin." Those are pretty different ideas. When it comes to branding or cutting, people know themselves well, and know exactly what they want. I haven't worked on any crazy people so far.

When you first started you were doing mostly people that you knew -- how has it changed now that you're working on strangers?

When I first started piercing, I was mostly doing friends and friends of friends, and I had a really good circle of friends. So anyone I was working on was a really amazing person... same with the branding, just really incredible people. When I started piercing on a commercial level, that's when I started getting a lot of crazy people. A lot of people who don't really think about it much. In terms of branding though, it's still a really good bunch of people even though I don't know them as well. Absolutely great.

Do you think that working in the suburbs rather than in a downtown shop changes your clientele? You get almost exclusively people who are coming to you, rather than walk-in...

That's true. I get the best of both worlds. People know who I am, and they're willing to travel for that, so I get people from suburbia and people from the city.

Subincision is where you make an incision down the lower half of the penis -- basically you just cut open the urethra like a split hot dog. Most of my customers see pictures of it and they don't really get it.

Why would somebody want to do that?

The inside of the urethra is really, really sensitive, so once you do a subincision, it's expose. When you're having intercourse, it feels a whole lot better. Traditionally it was done by Aborigines in Australia, so it's not just something we invented in the last couple of years. It's been around for a long long time.

On a general level, what's the procedure like?

It was pretty complicated.There's a lot of steps involved. It was very detailed. I had everything all planned out, so there wasn't really too much room for error. It's a good procedure I have.

And the results?

No closure or anything like that. We did it in three stages. I think next time I do a subincision on someone I'll just do it in one shot. There's less trauma if you just have to heal once. It's looks really good, it's nice and healed. I thought about doing it myself, but...

You've also done some beading on him and a number of other clients?

I think normal people -- I guess I shouldn't say "normal", but people who are piercers or tattoo artists tend to be a bit freaky. We don't have as many limitations, but people who are just getting started have limitations and say, "well, that's too far". Most of my friends are pretty extreme -- beading is not that big of a deal.

Most of the people who I've done pearling on haven't been very verbal about it, but I don't think they have any limitations. I think they wanted them and new I had a solid and safe procedure. If you're going to get a piercing, beading's not much different. That's how they see, and it's how I see it. I don't see much difference other than it takes me a long time to mark it out to make sure it'll turn out well and heal well, and not have much bleeding.

To the extent that you want to comment on the procedure, it's pretty close to a piercing?

There's not much difference really.

It's safe to say that the only other artist doing the same range of modifications as you is Steve Haworth. However, he's chose a different, more "technological" approach to tools, whereas you use much more traditionally-based tools. Why is this?

I got my tools due to availability. I have four different scalpel blade styles that I use. There's one that I use for pearling, another for cutting with straight lines, and another for curved cuts -- it's just common sense. Often I have tools made for me, because there isn't always a tool out there for what I need. For example, I have a special tool for doing the cut in the subincision procedure quickly and safely. Maybe if I had all that electro-stuff I'd use it, but I don't feel at all disadvantaged. What I have right now works really well -- But I did just order an electrocautery tool just to make sure what I'm using is the best tool for the job. If my tools were inconsistent, or caused a lot of trauma, I'd worry about it a bit more, but they don't. You have to think that way, always looking for a way to improve. Even if it includes buying something that costs a lot more money. I can't see too many advantages to the electrocautery tool -- for one, it hurts a hell of a lot more.

How do you see yourself? What is your role?

You know what, when I think of a career, I think I'm a piercer. That's what I do most of the time. I pierce. I also see myself as an artist and because I like doing branding and scarification. Skin is such a great canvas. It's an incredible art form.

As an artist it's much more fulfilling than piercing...?

Absolutely. Not that piercing isn't fulfilling, but when you do it continuously for so many years, it just becomes very normal, whereas I'm always excited to do a nice branding or cutting. Everyone has different anatomy so there are variances, but with piercing there are only so many options. With branding there are so many different designs... like a tattoo. It's nice to have a creative job.

Do you ever wish you'd pushed yourself harder in the direction of being a tattoo artist, or is branding better?

I'm really glad I don't tattoo. It's so mainstream that it would be frustrating to do a lot of stuff that people ask for.

It's not like people come in and ask to get a Taz branded on them!

No, but if they did, I'd be pretty stoked to do it, just for cheese value! I'd probably do it for free!

What does branding cost?

My minimum is $110 dollars Canadian and it goes up for there depending on how much it is -- maybe $400 for a full back -- I like doing bigger pieces, so they cost less per square inch. Overall, it's not very expensive. It sounds bad, but it also depends on how much I like the piece -- If I look at a piece and say, that's fucking cool, I'll do it for less... With branding I'm not there for the money. If I could do it for free I would. Piercing as well would be a lot more exciting if it was free because people seem to appreciate things more when they're free! It's unfortunate that the way we live we couldn't do much without money. I couldn't buy all the tools that I have without money.

You make all your own branding tools?

Pretty much I make everything. I just buy surgical stainless steel and carve it any way I need it.

They should look for consistency of line. This is actually really important, because a lot of people don't realize that as long as the lines are consistent and it's well drawn, that's a good brand. People get keloid scars sometimes -- it has a lot to do with genetics, and where on the body is getting branded, and I think that some people, especially people who are prone to hyper-keloid scarring sometimes even the best work can be somewhat inconsistent. For example, a forearm may be totally consistent, but the ditch where there's more movement may keloid even more. So sometimes even good branding can be inconsistent.

If the brands are consistent in thickness and depth, then that's a good brand. It's nice to get a nice raise out of a brand, but sometime no matter how good a job you do it isn't going to happen. It doesn't always have to do with the color of your skin either, because I've branded black people who didn't raise at all, and I've branded white folk who've keloided incredibly. There are a lot of genetics involved. It's a misconception that it's a lousy brand if it doesn't raise. Sometimes it just doesn't happen.

What about healed photos?

Absolutely. It's hard to tell how a branding worked out unless you see it healed. Even if it doesn't keloid scar you always get permanent discoloration. At first it'll be a red color, and then eventually it'll go to a pure white, so at least you'll always have your design.

How long does branding normally take to heal?

I would say on average about three weeks, and then it's completely closed over. This is just primary healing. It's a bright red scar, and eventually it will fade to pink. There's a period where you can hardly see your brand when it's in between pink and white. Then it goes to pure white, or if you're dark skinned it'll sometimes go even darker. But almost always there's a middle time where you can't see it much, but it does eventually get more visible. I think the quickest I've ever seen a brand turn completely white was three months, and other times it can take two or three years.

How should people take care of brands?

I suggest a few things. There are different risk levels for taking care of a cutting or branding. I tell you what you could do, and you have to decide what level of risk you're willing to take. The safest way to take care of it is never to touch it unless your hands are washed, and to wash the branding with a mild soap twice a day, and cover it with clean clothing. Then you can go the next step which is to pick the scab, making sure not to contaminate it in any way.

What do you mean by risk?

Higher chances of infection.

The next level would be picking at the scab, and using something like Balsamic vinegar or sesame oil or Ivory Snow detergent -- really scrubbing and irritating your brand. You're irritating it, and keeping it open as long as possible increasing the amount of scarring, but also increasing the chances of getting infected. You have to make the decision -- how much risk are you willing to take for this?

When a person picks a brand, does this take quality control out of your hands and put it into theirs?

Well, I always have a consultation and I explain all the details. There are proper ways to pick at a scar to have it keloid evenly. You want to make sure you pick in the direction of the branding. You can't just take an SOS pad and scrub the same thing. It needs to be picked in the direction it was branded, kind of like a grain of wood. You go with the flow, and that way the scar will keloid as consistently as the brand was done. Often if you do two lines, and they're close together, if you pick at them any old ways the two lines might merge together, but if you pick at them in the same direction then the skin in the middle should stay the same so you have a nice consistent brand. That's really important. If you don't take care of your branding, it's not going to heal up that great.

They just make more sense. Common sense. Any time you use a straight bar, even flexible nylon, there's still a lot of surface tension on the skin so eventually, it will grow out. When you use a surface bar you decrease the surface tension, so it has a really good chance of staying -- but not always.

What would you say the success rate is?

I don't know. I have my own ideas about them. I think they're somewhat risky. Surface bars, if they're done really long, often just the normal lymph that the body wants to clean the piercing out with will build up in the middle of it, and people start to get cysts. When I think of a surface bar I think of a high maintenance piercing.

So they're not the simple solution some people have presented them as?

No, no, no. It's not like you can stick them any place and they're going to heal perfectly like a nostril. There's still a level of risk involved. I don't like to do surface bars unless the person has been pierced a good number of times. You have to be serious and know how to take care of a piercing well. It only makes sense because there's a little more risk involved. It's hard to say how many have stayed because often you do them and you never see the people again.

If I had to guess I'd say it's around 80% if people are taking perfect care of them, but over all, I'd say it's closer to 50%.

Yes, I'd say 50/50. It depends a lot on your body. There are so many variables. It's not as simple as we'd like to think. When it comes to a nostril it's going to stay, but when it comes to a surface bar I think some people have really high chances of having keloid scars or migration. They will migrate out sometimes. It also depends on how much irritation they get. Are they on your arms where your coat is irritating them? That's going to irritate all the new cells trying to heal, and the body might just push it out.

Some people's bodies have problems with certain materials -- even if you put in the best surgical steel, it has some nickel in it. Some people are allergic, and others have just a minor problem with it, so things heal a little slower. It varies so much. It's not as easy as a normal piercing. It's really for someone who knows a lot about piercing. It's not the great wonder thing that everyone thinks it is.

What about the scalpelled piercings?

I don't see the need for that. If you're concerned about tension, you might as well just use a slightly larger needle and you'll have less trauma. Scalpels do make nice clean incisions, but they are pretty huge. I don't agree with that at all -- I do use scalpels for pearling though, because I know that when I use a two gauge taper through the skin of a guy's penis, if I was to make an 8ga hole and then stretch it up, that skin's going to tear. So I might as well make a 4ga incision with the scalpel, creating less damage and pain overall. You can really feel an 8ga bevel. When you do pearlings, to make an incision at an 8ga hurts the same or more as a scalpel at a larger size. However, in some parts of the States you can't legally use scalpels. I guess they figure it's crossing the line. But what's the difference -- you're making an incision using a tool.

I did own first. When I first got mine, it was at 14ga about six years ago. I stretched it up to 2ga over a year. I wanted to stretch it larger, but I didn't want to distort the tattoo any more than I had, so the only way I could stretch it was downward. I had to make an incision downwards to displace the skin in that direction. It worked fine.

I did a few other people, but with them it was different. if you look at the muscles, they run horizontally. When I made my incision downwards, I was at a little bit of risk because there was a chance of severing muscle. I don't think I would be too anxious to do this on someone else, but on myself I was willing to take the risk. To do it this horizontally it's safer, but there are still nerves to sever.

How were these procedures bloody-wise, and healing-wise?

Fine. Not that bad. What I usually do is I look at the lip and see how many veins are going on and all that. It depends a lot on the person's anatomy. It's the same thing as someone with a surface bar -- it's someone who's got to taken care of piercings a lot before and they've got to be willing to take some level of risk. Even if I really thoroughly check their lip for arteries and nerves, who's to say there isn't one hidden. If the person doesn't understand the risk, or isn't willing to take it, I'm not willing to work on them.

But you inform them thoroughly?

Yeah, absolutely. I think it would be irresponsible to do something like that on a person and not tell them everything.

How long did those take to heal?

About the same as a regular labret. At most maybe two weeks longer. Six weeks or so. They heal well though. If a person is thinking of this sort of thing, and they want to be safe, they're better off just getting a regular labret and stretching. That's the realistically safe way. But if you're a little bit of a risk-taker and know you want it bad enough, maybe it's something for you. I think lately I'm a little bit more cautious in a lot of ways.

Why is that?

I'm smarter now. It's good to be cautious. It's better to turn people away than take a chance.

Is that a risk some piercers take when they're caught up in the thrill of doing new procedures?

I would say so for sure. You have to really think about what you're doing, and the risk level. You have to look at what do you want to do, what's the risk level, and what's a solid procedure for doing it. If the risk level is too high it's crazy, irresponsible to do it. I had a guy that wanted me to put piercings through his wrists. Even though technically it might be possible, the chances of it healing were close to none, and the chances for fucking something up are pretty high. I think if you want to be some glamor-cool piercer, go for it, you'll be famous, but if you fuck that guy up you're an idiot, and you'll be famous for being such an idiot!

For someone doing wild procedures, you've gotten virtually no press.

Yeah, that's ok! I think I screen people pretty thoroughly on who I'm going to do work on. Most of the people I do extreme stuff are heavily involved in the scene. I won't work on anyone I don't feel comfortable with. There was someone that came to me once and wanted a branding -- they said "I want it to be a perfect circle. Perfect!". I told them that every circle I'd done was close to perfect, but I couldn't guarantee anything. He also wanted me to guarantee the thickness of the line. Realistically it just might not happen like that. If you want something perfect you should get a tattoo. So I had no problems turning this person down because they were looking for something that might not be possible and they weren't willing to have any leeway. It's like if someone wants a belly-button piercing and says I want it perfect, and I want it healed in six weeks. You can say if you take care of it 100% and keep it clean, it might, but I can't guarantee it. If you're not willing to take that little bit of a risk you shouldn't get you belly-button done.

Earlier you said that you spent time meditating and praying. What did you mean by that? Where are you spiritually?

I have to say that you have to respect everybody's form of spirituality. I feel that we are all a part of God, or the Great Spirit. We're all connected -- everything's connected. From the chair I'm sitting in to the TV, everything is all connected. The way I see things you just have to respect everything around you and respect the environment around and everyone's differences and spiritual beliefs. There are so many contradictory beliefs. Even I contradict myself, because one day I feel different than the other day. And there's nothing wrong with that -- you have to be able to live in the middle ground and appreciate that. I don't really have a label for my spirituality -- you just have to have respect for everybody's beliefs and ideas as long as they're not harming anybody or the environment. I'm not too keen on fundamentalists. It's dangerous to get carried away. I have pretty strong beliefs -- my whole way of living is low-impact. I have a red-worm composter at my house, and I like to recycle what I can. I buy organic produce to support the little guy. If I was to buy two different products, and they were about the same price, I'd buy from the small business. It just makes more sense. I live that way. There are people who buy whatever they want, and don't recycle, but I still have respect for them. I'm not going to fight over anything -- I'm a pretty passive guy I think.

Outside of the body modification scene, what do you spend your time doing?

Lately, art-work. Photography, trumpet lessons. I was taking dance for a while, Shiatsu, drama class. I just want to learn so much. I haven't learned anything. I think it's good to have a really amazing hobby like piercing or branding, but when it becomes a job and you're doing it so much, you need another fun hobby.

It sounds like the primary motivation is learning, and the fun of learning.

Yes, absolutely. I think if piercing ever gets to the point where it's not fun anymore I won't go to work. I haven't got time for things that bug me that much. I did it for so long when I worked for the Peel Board of Education -- I suffered for eleven years in a job I hated. I'll never do it again. Nothing is ever a waste, but now that I look back on it I wish I'd done things differently. I'm learning to live a little more, and appreciate little things more.