Many readers know yttrx both from his long-standing presence on rab, from his satirical body modification guides, as well as his help on BME over the years. What you may not know is that after being heavily modified for years, yttrx recently took out most of his mods in favor of higher-end employment. In this interview we talk both about that process, and the history of yttrx. Enjoy! BME: First, what is rab, and when and how did you come to discover it?yttrx: RAB is short for rec.arts.bodyart. It's a newsgroup on Usenet, which is one of the facets of the Internet that (thankfully) most web-surfers don't know about. It was started sometime in 1991 I think. It's very old as active newsgroups go. I discovered RAB in my search for information on tongue piercing some time in late 1993 or early 1994. I lurked for a long time waiting for someone else to ask my question, and when no one did I decided to just come out with it. I think the question had something to do with healing time and how long before I could talk without sounding funny. I was doing tech support for a little mom-and-pop ISP at the time, so impediment-less speech was very important.
BME: How did you evolve from just being some kid on the net, to being a central figure -- and a terror to many -- on rab?yttrx: I swear when I first started posting I was very nice. I tried to help everyone I could, and I asked lots of intelligent questions about cross-contamination and psychology and stuff. I cant quite remember exactly what changed it all for me, and a google search hasn't done me any good since I have no idea what my moniker was at the time. As I remember, I started getting a bit fed up with some crystal sucking hippie regular (I cant remember her name, but she was in Chicago at the time also) and I decided to start fighting with her over our differences. I was no stranger to Usenet flamewars at that point, and found it very satisfying to flame the hell out of her until she stopped responding to my posts. The general reaction to my sudden flame was, as I recall, entirely unexpected. There was something of a rally around my point and even though a few regulars (and most newbies) disagreed with my argument technique, it seems to me that my seemingly random attack was tempered well with the offerings of advice and intelligent questions. Its important to remember that when I first started reading rab, it was just as harsh as it is now -- except with much, much fewer people. When I first subscribed to rab there were one or two posts a day at the very most. Now there are routinely over a hundred. To resort to anecdotal evidence, I think the two or three flames I saw per week on rab in the beginning suits the ten or twenty a day that I see now perfectly. A lot of people probably don't agree with me on that. When "yttrx" appeared, it was specifically because I wanted to encapsulate the bitchy persona that I'd created. It was entirely contrived; an absolutely synthetic moniker for an absolutely synthetic persona. I picked the letters at semi-random, based on an element that I could never remember how to spell in high school chemistry tests. I also wanted something that would be unpronounceable as well as unforgettable. Surprisingly, a massive and horrible ongoing flamewar in many acts that I had with Anne Greenblatt completely cemented the yttrx persona. Along with her leaving the group, the subsequent death-threats (Christ, how can a piercer have so many friends?) made the decision to lend permanency to yttrx very easy. I couldn't believe that what I'd typed carried so much weight. It was hilarious to me at the time.
BME: Why do you think rab has started dying off, and do you think that's a good or bad thing?yttrx: I used to argue endlessly with this perspective, but recently I've started changing my mind. I used to think that rab was simply going through another one of its seemingly endless death-rebirth cycles -- but this latest lull has been a long one. I think that its dying off largely because of ancient regulars who refuse to leave. We've built a thick wall around what we seem to truly (and perhaps erroneously) believe is correct information and advice about body modification. Just recently there was a flame-war that started over a post by some chick who let her boyfriend pierce her hood -- which turned out painful and crooked. I found the general old-regular response to her post utterly revolting. People started whining about how awful it was to let her lover pierce her hood, how dangerous it was, what an idiot he was, and no wonder it was crooked, and what did she expect, the silly bitchhole. I decided to play it with integrity and come in on the other side of the argument -- what business is it of anyone's what she and her lover decide to do to each other in their own bedroom? What right do any of the old regulars have to lay judgment all over the situation? Whats wrong with telling her where to get the right equipment and the right information to do the job safely and well? Thats that wall I was talking about. Her post flew against the potent dogma that at some point infiltrated the minds of the old-regulars and was immediately torn to pieces. Thats why I think its dying off, and I think its a very good thing. If rab cannot evolve to match the community that it swears its serving, then it needs to die. I don't think that its actually going to go away though. I think eventually most of the old-regulars will finally drop away, leaving room for a new nest of old-regulars with new ideas and new philosophies.
BME: You're one of a half-dozen people who've sustained a strong personality on rab over the past ten years or so... What do you feel your role is there, and what do you feel you contribute?yttrx: What my role is now and what it used to be are completely different. I think I used to be the house asshole. I always tried to temper my terrible flames with sound advice and thoughtful questions, but then I ran out of both. Then I tried to temper my flames with fun fake news articles and satire; but then I ran out of those as well. At some point I wrote the RAB survival guide, and to this day I wish more people read it and understood what I was trying to say. But that's probably my fault. I hope I contributed something of value to the community through rab, but I have heavy doubts. At some point along the line, the yttrx persona melded indistinguishably with my own -- its very difficult to keep psychological distance from a character that lives in an ascii world for so long. I think when that happened it became less important for me to be very careful with balancing worthless flames and intelligent value, and more important for me to develop stronger relationships with many of the friends I made through rab. I don't think I have much of a role now. I still seem to be riding on the momentum of the flames and documents of the original yttrx incarnation, but I haven't posted anything interesting or handy in quite some time.
BME: You've produced a multitude of satirical FAQs and guides -- what was your goal in doing them?yttrx: Well, there are two sets of documents actually, the first set is probably forgotten by all but the oldest regulars. It was called "Why I Do It, Parts I-II", and its freely available on Google. That pair of posts was a very serious and philosphical representation of my own reasons for wanting to modify my body. They were met favorably, and I was glad. I think I was drunk when I did the first couple of the second set. I was very bored with the endless procession of "whats this pit in my tongue" and "I got a new industrial!" and "light a candle for my dead nipple piercing" posts, and I desperately needed to be amused. After the first couple I decided to actually put some useful information in them. I felt kind of guilty about the sublime (and some not so sublime) digs I was making at many of the regulars through them, and that whole yttrx ethic kicked in. I was driven to doing the Survival Guide. I'd eaten a bunch of drugs or something and my mood was delicate. One of the billions of posts about how mean RABbits were set me off that night, and I ended up writing a document that I hoped would make people laugh, but also that they'd take seriously. There are no lies in the Survival Guide, which is what sets it apart from all the other documents in the second set.
BME: Have you gotten any interesting responses to them?yttrx: When I first posted them I got a few emails from people who thought I was actually advocating gutter-punk dickheads pushing hatpins through their faces. Which I was. Don't tell anyone. I didn't get many interesting responses at all actually, but for the last couple of years I've been occasionally doing a search on "yttrx" (see, now im really glad I chose a unique moniker) all over the Internet -- very interestingly many of those documents have been linked to from websites about things like aviation and carpentry. I have no idea why.
BME: As someone who's been around -- and been involved -- in online body modification culture, what do you think about the direction it's evolved? (And do you think it even meets the criteria of a "subculture"?)yttrx: Its not a subculture until WIRED does an article about it. A print article. Not a cheap web-only one. I think that for better or for worse, RAB and BME have both been the core of the online body modification community. Its an extremely centralized community, and as a result I think tends towards stagnation. I remember feeling excitement and exhilaration at the thought of a cohesive online body modification community years ago, but now I think I've gotten jaded. I see a lot of nearly religious arguments -- not about things like technique and aesthetics -- but about things like whether LA piercers are more idiotic than Toronto piercers. Or whether its more of a status symbol to have a piece by Guy Atchison rather than the biker dude down by the pier. The interesting and thought-provoking aspects of body modification seem to be being washed away in a sea of egotism and politic. I think it sucks -- but I also think it was bound to happen as body modification (alternative body modifcation that is; not nose-jobs or breast implants and the like) hit the mainstream.
BME: What were you thinking when you got your first piercing? Your first tattoo?yttrx: My first non-traditional (at the time) piercing was my tongue. I'll never forget the experience. It was done by Barbara Pierce during a guest stint at the old Body Basics in Chicago. I remember dancing up the stairs and clapping my hands excitedly during the whole process. I'd never had something that severe done, and the stuff I learned from my brain during the piercing and the healing process were more valuable to me than any experience prior. My first tattoo was while I was completely ripped in London in 1995 or so. I got a silly flash "Eye of Horus" on my left shoulder by a smelly biker in Chelsea. It hurt a lot, I bled a lot, and the biker was smoking a joint the entire time. I loved it. The rush was incredible and I still treasure the product.
BME: What made you continue the process, and how did it end up snowballing across the line of what mainstream society considered acceptable?yttrx: I was walking down the street in Boystown, Chicago, when suddenly the yuppie girlfriend of some fratboy tugged on his sleeve and pointed at my Eye of Horus tattoo. She said, "Look! He has the same tattoo you do! And its in the same place! Oh my god!" I made an appointment with Misha at Body Basics immediately. I like getting tattooed for the first hour or so, and after that it just pisses me off. Despite this, I managed to put in many hours and racked up most of a left leg, most of my back, both upper arms, a chest piece and a sleeve down to the knuckles. I was getting pierced all that time too, and at the apex I had 0000ga lobes, low helixes, labret, upper labret, tongue, nipples and apadravya. I'd planned on cheek piercings and more ear- work, but it never came through. At the time that all of this was going on, I was a UNIX sysadmin for a series of quickly bought out companies in Chicago. No one cared what I looked like at all. My skills spoke for themselves and I continued to easily find employment. In fact, my look very often worked in my favor when I was sent out in the field to fix broken stuff at client sites -- the consistent position at those sites was that "He must know what he's doing, he looks like that guy from 'Hackers'". So while I was in Chicago and employed, I never noticed what the line was. I was submerged in two subcultures computer geeks and musicians. Neither one of them thought anything at all of the way I looked.
BME: Were you even aware that you were crossing that line, or what it could mean in the long term? If so, what allowed you to overlook it?yttrx: I wasn't aware of it. The only twinge of a possible negative effect I ever got was when I decided to let the sleeve on my left arm extend up to my knuckles. I knew that hand- tattoos were highly frowned upon in many states, and that some even clocked such people as "unemployable" and gave them extensions on unemployment benefits. However, I was happily employed in the UNIX admin world, and I didn't give it another thought. I was convinced that the UNIX admin path was my key to absolute security in the body modification vein. I was even convinced that I could go MUCH further than the vast majority of people do and still be just fine.
BME: So... At this point in our story you've evolved into a visibly modified person (as well as below the clothes). What were your job options?yttrx: Heavily modded people have few career choices in the united states. As a computer geek, I was safe at the time. I could have also been a musician or an artist, or freelanced in the entertainment industry. Or I could have worked in a record store.
BME: When did it become clear that you'd martyred yourself?yttrx: I don't think I ever martyred myself. I'm not dead yet, for godsakes. I feel like I need to make this perfectly clear at this point: I am not my modifications. They are an extension of who I am, they are in no way what I am. I moved to Boston from Chicago last October in order to finally get back to my roots on the east coast. The move had been for at least 6 months, and I felt very good about it -- until September 11th. We were supposed to get on a plane to Boston on the morning of 9/11 to finalize the deal on an apartment. Needless to say, the plane never left and I was left with a very, very bad feeling in the pit of my stomach. We moved anyway. I thought at the time that the cloud that I was feeling over the move was because I was afraid of terrorists and war, or maybe the crappy condition of the stock market. I knew finding a job was going to be more difficult than I'd counted on and changed a few tactics accordingly. At the time, not only did I still have all my facial piercings, but also cartoon-red hair down to my ass. I put it up in a ponytail for the few job interviews I managed to get, but no one ever called me back for a second one. I guess I was naive, or maybe I just didn't want to believe that it was because of the way I looked. Finally, I got some feedback from one of the interviews, which basically amounted to "He's perfect for the job; I would have hired him if he hadn't had funny hair and a tattoo on his hand". I couldn't deny it anymore. I became very upset.
BME: When did you start seriously considering that maybe the sacrifices were not worth it?When my style of living became endangered. I was one of those statistical kids that you hear about in thoughtful documentaries about poverty in Appalachia. I do not want to be poor; I've done that and it sucks. I wouldn't take a knife in the neck to avoid poverty, but cutting my hair is not the same thing as a knife in the neck.
BME: Was it more difficult to remove your piercings, or was cutting your hair off more difficult? Did any particular thoughts go through your head as you removed each one...?yttrx: Cutting my hair off was far more difficult. I have a long history of putting a lot of my own sense of self into my hair for various reasons. I couldn't believe how much better my earlobes felt after a couple of hours of having nothing in them. I'd taken my tongue piercing out about a year earlier after one cracked tooth too many, my nipples had migrated out by then and I'd also removed my apadravya in the interest of sexual comfort. It's an anatomy thing. So the only stuff I took out for the job hunt was all my head piercings except my low helixes. Taking my labret out was probably the hardest. I hadn't ever had nothing in it since the day it was done. I also leaked coffee and beer all over my shirt for the first couple of days.
BME: What about your tattoos? Will you have the more public ones removed?yttrx: No, never. I may not like getting tattoos, but having them is very important to me. I never get a tattoo that isn't extremely symbolic and potent for me, and I cant bear the thought of having any of them removed.
BME: Do you regret getting the mods in the first place? Or was it still an overall positive experience? Would you do it over again the same way?yttrx: I don't regret any mod I've ever gotten. They were all incredible learning experiences and a hell of a lot of fun. Modifying my body has been the most psychologically valuable thing I've ever done. I'd do it all again too, probably the same way. In fact, I probably will end up doing it all again if I live long enough.
BME: How serious a decision was getting the modifications in the first place if you're willing to remove them in trade for money?yttrx: Some were more serious than others. I never saw piercing as a "permanent" body modification. I knew that eventually I'd probably end up taking some out and getting others. My hair was a very serious decision. Cutting it was painful for me, and I feel like I lost a part of myself with it. However, there are things that are very important for me to accomplish in my life, while I have it. And those things take money; some of them take quite a lot of it. My hair will grow back eventually. My tattoos are the most serious mod thus far -- thats why I refuse to have any of them removed. I'd rather put my goals in jeopardy.
BME: What about your non-visible mods? Are those all still there?yttrx: All the tattoos are, but none of the piercings are. But I didn't remove them for political reasons, I removed them for comfort.
BME: Do you think that the industry has a responsibility to pass these warnings on to young people?yttrx: Absolutely not. I don't believe in protecting young people from anything, especially themselves. Besides, young people never pay any attention to what The Man tells them anyhow -- but they do pick up some sense of decision making from the morons around them I think.
BME: Do you think employers are wrong in expecting you to look a certain way, especially in a job where it has zero bearing on your performance?yttrx: I don't think its wrong, I think its natural. It may be changing, but people are generally pretty afraid of all of the stuff that falls outside their hard-coded vision of the world. Thats fine. I have to live with it. I probably do it myself. I think people have all kinds of weird expectations. Luckily, I'm in a position where I can meet all of them. I'm using my willingness to modify my appearance to my favor this time.
BME: Do you think society is wrong in expressing uniformity in appearance?yttrx: I think thats natural too, and I don't think its going to change at all in my lifetime.
BME: What do you think about the claim that body modification is a right, and that employers should not be allowed to discriminate on it, be it for freedom of expression rights (as BME generally defends) or for freedom of religion rights (as the Church of Body Modification generally makes noise about)?yttrx: I think that rights are generally arbitrary -- including the right of self expression and the right of discrimination. We all do both. If I'm a gigantic asshole and I feel comfortable in the perspective that my assholeness is a valid and integral aspect of my freedom of expression, should I be denied employment for it? This is a very complex issue and I think its a big mistake to see it in black-and-white. That said, I'll of course continue to modify my body (and do whatever the hell else I want) at my own leisure. No one is taking away my ability to do so. However, now that I've seen that my past body modification habits are not compatible with my current geography and lifestyle, I have to make a choice. There's nothing stopping me from continuing my present lifestyle with all of my mods intact by selling drugs or pimping whores -- but thats not the decision that I've made. The decision I've made is to change my appearance enough to approximate the status quo, because there are things in my life that I want much, much more than a face full of metal. Of course employers should be allowed to discriminate over it. Introducing yet more legislation (and creating yet more laws, spending yet more money) that would force employers to comply with some starry-eyed, politically correct version of the world would only lead to yet more hostility and yet more bullshit for everyone involved on both sides. I say this from a perspective of having been a hiring manager for an enormous megaconglomerate; dealing with affirmative action and non-discrimination in the hiring process is an enormous pain in the ass. I was hardly ever allowed to hire the most qualified applicant. Out of lawsuit paranoia, I was forced to hire the black one, or the girl, or the homosexual, or whatever other alienated minority that had the ACLU behind them. I'm not saying that the most qualified applicant was consistently white, male, straight and christian -- I'm saying that among a pool of 20 applicants where the most qualified individual was a white, male, straight Christian -- the gay black chick with a wooden leg and a prayer mat would be hired every time. Thats a lot of crap. I don't ever want to be in the position where I'm hired because the employer is afraid of lawyers; I want to be hired because I am the most qualified, talented applicant. I see no middle ground in this issue. Employers will always hire the person that has the least chance of suing them. Its a huge mess, and I don't think its going to ever change -- which is why I decided to alter things on my side. I have ultimate control over myself, and I can reshape myself to fit any lucrative position. THAT'S body modification. As far as freedom of religion rights to modify one's body as outlined by Church of Body Modification, it's a load of bullshit. There are two sides to that issue actually, both of which I found when attempting to create my own religion which would have eventually protected me from discrimination: 1. There are a handful of HUGE religions which are tolerant of nearly any spiritual perspective that would have backed me up instead. There was no point in creating a new one, other than egotism and megalomania. 2. Creating a religion specifically to manipulate the laws of the people around you is revolting and ugly. Although I'm not religious myself, I see religion as a sacred pursuit, and anyone that pulls a blob of spirituality out of their ass for their own selfish and self-serving M.O. belongs in a shoe box along with L. Ron Hubbard, Joseph Smith and Anton LaVey.
BME: Had you ever considered fighting being turned down when it was mod related?yttrx: Actually, years ago I forced a raise out of a certain national communications company by implying that I would seek legal counsel if they didn't. The implication was that they were discriminating against me because of my mohawk and tattoos. I said very little, and I said it in a calm and friendly manner, and let their paranoia work the rest for me. It worked great. I wouldn't do it again. I've learned since that forcing people to do what you want them to is only good as a last resort, when all else has failed. I'm not at the end of my rope yet, and I would rather sell drugs or pimp whores than attempt to force my point of view on anyone else with the big legal weaponry. If I cant change someone's mind with calm, rational argument, it's just not worth it.
BME: When you're old and retired, will you start again?yttrx: Actually I hope I start again way before that. In the throes of this situation I've decided to not stick to the computer geek career, but instead start a business which can exist in a world where I can have big titties if I feel like it. I'll need a computer-geek job to kickstart the other goal (because its going to be expensive), but hopefully I won't have to have it for very long.
BME: Do you miss your modifications, and if so, which do you wish the most?yttrx: I don't miss my stretched lobes. It's great to be able to lie down on the couch again and watch TV without spending five minutes getting my head and pillow into a position which doesn't twist or pinch my ears. I think that through all of this I miss my oral piercings the most. Thats probably because when you have a mouth full of metal you become strangely subconsciously aware of it all the time... anyone who had braces would probably agree. Not having them still feels weird.
BME: In the past, people would keep most of their modifications private, and not start messing with public skin until they were retired. Nowadays, young people tend to start their sleeve tattoos at the wrist and work up, and pierce their faces long before piercing their genitals. Why do you think this change happened, and what do you think of it?yttrx: I think it happened for the same reason I used to sit in dirty alleys with my punk-ass friends and stick safety pins through each other's faces -- it pissed people off. We thought that we were saying something tragic and cool with our freaky appearances. We probably should have been using pens, but I'm pretty sure our egos and hormones wouldn't have allowed it. I think its fantastic. I think its symbolic and often very attractive and really actually does say something tragic and cool, but probably not what the wearer means. Also, one day (if there are enough of them) these people will infiltrate organizations and industries enough to be able to make the world a little more pleasant for some of the people who need it.
BME: What advice would you give to young people wanting to perform permanent or semi-permanent mods on their public skin?yttrx: I would never tell someone to not do it. I am vehemently in favor of the "your body is your body, period" philosophy, and anyone who wants to slice it up, stick stuff in it or paint pictures all over it has the perfect right to do so. However, if you do decide to tattoo flames from your neck to your eye-sockets, you better be goddamn well aware of the implications and possible results of your action. It's one thing to have freedom, it's something else entirely to understand it.
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