Update: First, the person in this procedure healed fine and is very happy. Second, I want to make it clear that while this procedure looks very intense, it’s probably less intense as a procedure than some large skin removal work, transscrotal piercings, implants, tongue splitting, and all the other procedures generally accepted by the body modification community.
Ok, this is a pretty gory entry. I apologize for that. But I think it’s important to emphasize that when you do large scale scarification (or sometimes small scale), sometimes the keloid grows out of control and starts getting very uncomfortable, restricting mobility, and so on. This piece was only about a month old in the photos below (it was done by a “well known body modification artist” who’s gonna stay unnamed because that’s not the point of the entry) and the customer was quite unhappy and wanted it dealt with.
Samppa Von Cyborg and Lukas Zpira got together to help him as much as they could. They felt that all of it was cut too deep, and did their best to excise the tissue, although the centre keloid was not removed (I’m assuming it was adhered right to the cartilage at bottom of the sternum). Starting with some exploratory cuts:
Mostly off and looking very gory:
As you can see, quite a chasm of tissue was removed! Check out the fatty tissue below:
Once stitched up, I can’t imagine how relived and happy the customer must have been. It’s a pretty intense removal, and a lot to go through, but Lukas and Samppa did a nice job restoring him… Hopefully the removal doesn’t have similar keloiding issues (sometimes it’s a problem that snowballs).
Finally, the gross out shot of the removed tissue:
Please take scarification seriously!!!
Ouch..
Ouch..
wow. i actually got the “watery-mouth-i’m-gonna-vomit” thing.
jesus fucking christ.
it was the shot of the fatty tissue after the keloid was taken off. thats what did it.
wow. i actually got the “watery-mouth-i’m-gonna-vomit” thing.
jesus fucking christ.
it was the shot of the fatty tissue after the keloid was taken off. thats what did it.
eek! this poor guy! i can’t even imagine. 🙁
eek! this poor guy! i can’t even imagine. 🙁
Jesus fucking Christ. Maybe it’s just me, but this doesn’t really seem like the kind of thing that you should rely on your friendly neighbourhood heavy mod practitioner to take care of.
Jesus fucking Christ. Maybe it’s just me, but this doesn’t really seem like the kind of thing that you should rely on your friendly neighbourhood heavy mod practitioner to take care of.
the removed scar tissue looks like hot dogs,but even more disgusting!!!!
the removed scar tissue looks like hot dogs,but even more disgusting!!!!
was he fully awake for all of that? ouch 🙁
was he fully awake for all of that? ouch 🙁
I’m in shock.
I’m in shock.
holy cow.
holy cow.
🙁 i didnt get freaked out one bit, didnt even cringe. I am desnsitized. Feel sorry for the guy who went through that, im sure the 2 guys did theyre best to salvage it.
On a side note i saw Lukas Zpira in Marquise Body Art in Lyon a few days ago. None of my friends are into the body mod culture and didnt know who he was. They didnt know why I was so excited. I really wanted to go say hi but didnt due to me being a wuss. 🙂
🙁 i didnt get freaked out one bit, didnt even cringe. I am desnsitized. Feel sorry for the guy who went through that, im sure the 2 guys did theyre best to salvage it.
On a side note i saw Lukas Zpira in Marquise Body Art in Lyon a few days ago. None of my friends are into the body mod culture and didnt know who he was. They didnt know why I was so excited. I really wanted to go say hi but didnt due to me being a wuss. 🙂
Lukas is a very, very nice guy. You should say hi if you see him!
Lukas is a very, very nice guy. You should say hi if you see him!
the first picture squicked me more than any of the others.
prolly cos they looked like giant scar bugs. with lots of legs.
i hope he doesn’t get the same problem again. poor guy.
the first picture squicked me more than any of the others.
prolly cos they looked like giant scar bugs. with lots of legs.
i hope he doesn’t get the same problem again. poor guy.
wow, that just looked brutal, hopefully that will heal much better this time around
can’t imagine how deep you’d have to cut to get that amoount of damage
wow, that just looked brutal, hopefully that will heal much better this time around
can’t imagine how deep you’d have to cut to get that amoount of damage
Sweet Jesus! Was he under any sort of anesthesia?! I bet those keloids had to be damn unpleasant though. I’d like to see how the removal turns out once it’s healed.
Sweet Jesus! Was he under any sort of anesthesia?! I bet those keloids had to be damn unpleasant though. I’d like to see how the removal turns out once it’s healed.
Yeah he had a pleasantness about him. Yeah i would have loved to but I wouldnt know what to say. I think he was doing some procedure there anyway.
Next time maybe. Definetly. Thanks 😀
Yeah he had a pleasantness about him. Yeah i would have loved to but I wouldnt know what to say. I think he was doing some procedure there anyway.
Next time maybe. Definetly. Thanks 😀
mmmmm.. sausages.
mmmmm.. sausages.
Lets fire up the BBQ and have some keloid-sausages! w00!
Lets fire up the BBQ and have some keloid-sausages! w00!
and let Darwin work his magic…
and let Darwin work his magic…
It’s a shame it’s ok to display the names of the practitioners who felt qualified to remedy the keloids but not name the practitioner who did the original work; in the day and age of the consumer/customer/recipient being liable for doing their own research and due diligence, that information could possibly keep them from having to seek other other practitioners for additional assistance.
It’s a shame it’s ok to display the names of the practitioners who felt qualified to remedy the keloids but not name the practitioner who did the original work; in the day and age of the consumer/customer/recipient being liable for doing their own research and due diligence, that information could possibly keep them from having to seek other other practitioners for additional assistance.
I don’t actually know who did it — I wasn’t told. If someone knows FOR SURE and wants to post it I won’t censor it.
I don’t actually know who did it — I wasn’t told. If someone knows FOR SURE and wants to post it I won’t censor it.
“Eat at Luigui’s!!!!”
I know what the poster above means by the watery mouth vomit thing. These are train wreck images. The shot of him looking serene with a gaping chest wound is both shocking and beautiful. I had to look a bunch of times…
“Eat at Luigui’s!!!!”
I know what the poster above means by the watery mouth vomit thing. These are train wreck images. The shot of him looking serene with a gaping chest wound is both shocking and beautiful. I had to look a bunch of times…
thats brutal. poor guy.
thats brutal. poor guy.
Wow, poor guy. I really feel sorry for him. I didn’t even know it was possible for scarification to go bad like that!
Wow, poor guy. I really feel sorry for him. I didn’t even know it was possible for scarification to go bad like that!
holy fuck.
they kind of look like fingers.
that said, i like what i can see of his tattoos!
holy fuck.
they kind of look like fingers.
that said, i like what i can see of his tattoos!
okay, so how much of this was the practitioner cutting too deep and how much was this the client waiting a month to watch these fat keloids form? my cuttings didn’t keloid overnight.
okay, so how much of this was the practitioner cutting too deep and how much was this the client waiting a month to watch these fat keloids form? my cuttings didn’t keloid overnight.
That’s why I would never try scarification.
Oh yeah, that and it’s illegal in Scotland.
Bloody ‘laws’.
That’s why I would never try scarification.
Oh yeah, that and it’s illegal in Scotland.
Bloody ‘laws’.
They looked gorgeous, though uncomfortable.
They looked gorgeous, though uncomfortable.
The last picture kind of looks like bloody sausages.
The last picture kind of looks like bloody sausages.
Man.
I think if any practitioner did that to me, it wouldn’t be another practitioner I’d go to to solve it.
Man.
I think if any practitioner did that to me, it wouldn’t be another practitioner I’d go to to solve it.
Holy shit.
Holy shit.
I have to agree with Jordan here- although it’s pretty awesome if you have such a deep level of trust in someone, this is something that might be better left to cosmetic surgeon type person.
That said, these are some pretty hardcore photos, and I hope the poor guy had plenty of painkillers!
Holy shit.
Holy shit.
I have to agree with Jordan here- although it’s pretty awesome if you have such a deep level of trust in someone, this is something that might be better left to cosmetic surgeon type person.
That said, these are some pretty hardcore photos, and I hope the poor guy had plenty of painkillers!
I agree with many of the other comments here. I have lots of respect for modification artists, but this is something that should be handled by a medical professional. Some of those sutures (albeit well placed and using appropriate technique) appear to be under a significant amount of tension
I am glad that you are posting these pictures so more people will be aware that scarifications are not procedures without significant risk.
I agree with many of the other comments here. I have lots of respect for modification artists, but this is something that should be handled by a medical professional. Some of those sutures (albeit well placed and using appropriate technique) appear to be under a significant amount of tension
I am glad that you are posting these pictures so more people will be aware that scarifications are not procedures without significant risk.
VERY SHOKING!..
i mean…sometimes its not even the artist that did such scar’s fault… maybe this guy just has an intense tendency to grow ugly bad queloids…
im really happy that he was abble to solve his problem…
lets just hope he heals well 😉
VERY SHOKING!..
i mean…sometimes its not even the artist that did such scar’s fault… maybe this guy just has an intense tendency to grow ugly bad queloids…
im really happy that he was abble to solve his problem…
lets just hope he heals well 😉
Maybe I’m the only one who noticed but, nasty scars and blood aside, I think his tattoo and piercing combo dealy is pretty sweet. It seems like the sternum piercing is supposed to look like two buttons to fasten what looks sort of like a coat or button up shirt of sorts. I could be wrong but thats the first thing I noticed (yes, even before the scarring).
Maybe I’m the only one who noticed but, nasty scars and blood aside, I think his tattoo and piercing combo dealy is pretty sweet. It seems like the sternum piercing is supposed to look like two buttons to fasten what looks sort of like a coat or button up shirt of sorts. I could be wrong but thats the first thing I noticed (yes, even before the scarring).
I would actually be really interested in seeing how this one heals….
I would actually be really interested in seeing how this one heals….
I completely agree with christyn, I think it’s important for potential clients to know what practioner did the intial scarring. Too bad mistakes are never included in artist portfolios…
I completely agree with christyn, I think it’s important for potential clients to know what practioner did the intial scarring. Too bad mistakes are never included in artist portfolios…
btw scars form on the subcutaneous tissue layer (commonly known as “skin”) and cannot adhere to skeletal bodies like the sternum…
btw scars form on the subcutaneous tissue layer (commonly known as “skin”) and cannot adhere to skeletal bodies like the sternum…
The first practitioner probably did a poor job here, no question about it — but I REALLY think the bigger issue here is that what is shown in the pictures here is really fucked up and should NOT be done by some guys who are just playing doctor.
The first practitioner probably did a poor job here, no question about it — but I REALLY think the bigger issue here is that what is shown in the pictures here is really fucked up and should NOT be done by some guys who are just playing doctor.
This is the last thing I needed to see when I’m going in for a scarification next monday.
This is the last thing I needed to see when I’m going in for a scarification next monday.
No joke.. some things might really be better suited to people with PhD’s. :/
No joke.. some things might really be better suited to people with PhD’s. :/
^ Agreed. I would go to a doc to get those removed. I guess people live inside their means though
^ Agreed. I would go to a doc to get those removed. I guess people live inside their means though
muito bom o trabalho!!!
VOLTS PAPADA
muito bom o trabalho!!!
VOLTS PAPADA
for everyone saying that he should have seen a surgeon:
That may of been a good option, but think about what a surgeon would do differently compared these practicioners did. The answer is probably not much more than anesthesia.
Also consider the background these practioners have. They’re not you’re regular hack job working in your mother’s basement, these are world renown practitioners.
for everyone saying that he should have seen a surgeon:
That may of been a good option, but think about what a surgeon would do differently compared these practicioners did. The answer is probably not much more than anesthesia.
Also consider the background these practioners have. They’re not you’re regular hack job working in your mother’s basement, these are world renown practitioners.
^^^
yeah, surgeons might not do much more. but they’d make nicer stitches.
pretty impressive modders, though.
and i’d definitely choose an MD over a PhD!
^^^
yeah, surgeons might not do much more. but they’d make nicer stitches.
pretty impressive modders, though.
and i’d definitely choose an MD over a PhD!
i can handle looking at a great variety of bloody and gory and run-over-by-a-train things but this really, really makes my skin crawl. jesus.
i can handle looking at a great variety of bloody and gory and run-over-by-a-train things but this really, really makes my skin crawl. jesus.
Raunchy.
Though I love the bit of his tattoos which were visible. I really like ORIGINAL bold blackwork.
And yes, PhDs are “doctors,” but not the kind most of you are thinking of…
Raunchy.
Though I love the bit of his tattoos which were visible. I really like ORIGINAL bold blackwork.
And yes, PhDs are “doctors,” but not the kind most of you are thinking of…
Zpira does use xylocaine, which is arguable safer than a general anaesthesia. I would think that even with a skilled reconstructive/plastic surgeon, this would probably be an out-patient procedure done with a local.
That said, I think that for something of that order, I would have preferred to see a board certified reconstructive surgeon had I been in his position. While it’s certainly interesting and neat, I think that he’d have less scarring in the end.
Question: why did Messrs. Von Cyborg and Zpira choose to use sutures? Don’t staples usually hold high tension areas better than sutures? I kinda thought that staples were nearly as readily available as well…
Zpira does use xylocaine, which is arguable safer than a general anaesthesia. I would think that even with a skilled reconstructive/plastic surgeon, this would probably be an out-patient procedure done with a local.
That said, I think that for something of that order, I would have preferred to see a board certified reconstructive surgeon had I been in his position. While it’s certainly interesting and neat, I think that he’d have less scarring in the end.
Question: why did Messrs. Von Cyborg and Zpira choose to use sutures? Don’t staples usually hold high tension areas better than sutures? I kinda thought that staples were nearly as readily available as well…
Shannon, that midline scar is really nowhere near the sternum, and a keloid scar wouldn’t adhere to bone anyway.
As for the “surgery” I don’t even know where to start… There are so many reasons why that surgery should have been done in a sterile operating environment by qualified plastic surgeons. Of course surgeons would have done it differently… to anyone who’s ever seen any surgery it’s immediately obvious – that surgery is terrible. I probably could have done better myself, but I wouldn’t have.
Just look at the size of the keloid compared to the length of the incision/scar. It looks like the incision had to be extended signifigantly towards the nipple (and downwards to a lesser extent) due to poor planning and the skin not lining up – you can’t just sew a rounded cut like they’d made initially with sutures. The resulting scar is almost twice the length it needed to be.
Look at the tension the stitches are under… Look at the bare arms of the practitioners… are those even sterile gloves? Look at the scalpel blade they’re using.
I hope this guy has access to good medical care, because if he didn’t need it before…
He’ll be lucky not to get a really nasty infection, let alone how that huge scar will heal (future keloid scar formation is likely). I just hope they only attempted that one on his right that you’ve shown pictures of, and not the one on the left as well.
I hope no-one reading modblog gets the impression that this was in any way a good way to deal with his scarring.
Shannon, that midline scar is really nowhere near the sternum, and a keloid scar wouldn’t adhere to bone anyway.
As for the “surgery” I don’t even know where to start… There are so many reasons why that surgery should have been done in a sterile operating environment by qualified plastic surgeons. Of course surgeons would have done it differently… to anyone who’s ever seen any surgery it’s immediately obvious – that surgery is terrible. I probably could have done better myself, but I wouldn’t have.
Just look at the size of the keloid compared to the length of the incision/scar. It looks like the incision had to be extended signifigantly towards the nipple (and downwards to a lesser extent) due to poor planning and the skin not lining up – you can’t just sew a rounded cut like they’d made initially with sutures. The resulting scar is almost twice the length it needed to be.
Look at the tension the stitches are under… Look at the bare arms of the practitioners… are those even sterile gloves? Look at the scalpel blade they’re using.
I hope this guy has access to good medical care, because if he didn’t need it before…
He’ll be lucky not to get a really nasty infection, let alone how that huge scar will heal (future keloid scar formation is likely). I just hope they only attempted that one on his right that you’ve shown pictures of, and not the one on the left as well.
I hope no-one reading modblog gets the impression that this was in any way a good way to deal with his scarring.
Sorry, I didn’t cancel the bold font properly. Hopefully this fixes it for future comments.
Sorry, I didn’t cancel the bold font properly. Hopefully this fixes it for future comments.
this fellow should be in a hospital on bed rest with iv antibotics and fluids not to mention pain meds…
Sometime I really think people need to step back and think before doing something like this cause just because you CAN does NOT mean you should.
I have scarifications and luckly this did not happen to me. I have gotten questions and lectures from doctors after they had seen my healed scars and I know I probably would have gone to my artist for help if this happened to me but I think in the end I would have gone to a surgeon for the removal seeing as how deep they had to cut for the removal. scary…
I hope that this fellow is well and healthly.
this fellow should be in a hospital on bed rest with iv antibotics and fluids not to mention pain meds…
Sometime I really think people need to step back and think before doing something like this cause just because you CAN does NOT mean you should.
I have scarifications and luckly this did not happen to me. I have gotten questions and lectures from doctors after they had seen my healed scars and I know I probably would have gone to my artist for help if this happened to me but I think in the end I would have gone to a surgeon for the removal seeing as how deep they had to cut for the removal. scary…
I hope that this fellow is well and healthly.
Funny, there is even a picture of someone giving the poor guy anesthetics and no one noticed…
Funny, there is even a picture of someone giving the poor guy anesthetics and no one noticed…
Oh, and anyone who starts off a rant by saying “I probably could have done better myself, but I wouldn’t have.” has to be full of it. My two cents.
Oh, and anyone who starts off a rant by saying “I probably could have done better myself, but I wouldn’t have.” has to be full of it. My two cents.
Full of it? *shrugs*
I have some (medical) surgical experience. I’m not claiming to be qualified to have performed this person’s surgery, but neither were the people who did. They’re the ones who went ahead and did it anyway, not me.
Full of it? *shrugs*
I have some (medical) surgical experience. I’m not claiming to be qualified to have performed this person’s surgery, but neither were the people who did. They’re the ones who went ahead and did it anyway, not me.
I’d just like to defend Samppa and Lukas here by saying that the guy didn’t go to a surgeon, he went to them, and they did what they could, the best they could.
The guy may not have had the large amount of money a plastic surgeon would have charged, and he might have been told by a doctor that since it’s not life threatening, he wouldn’t get it for free in the near future on his country’s medical system.
If you’ve ever watched S and L work, you’ll know they’re fanatical about sterility – of course the gloves are sterile – and it’s not like they’re dragging their bare arms (washed and scrubbed with antibacterial stuff) through the wounds.
Also I’d like to point out that Samppa does some of the neatest stitching I’ve ever seen, far better than any doctor my partner and I have been operated on by. In that photo, you can only really see the big stitches, but they’re just there to help keep the tension right – there’s actually loads of tiny neat stitches all the way up, in between.
It’s easy to sit behind your computer screen and slag off the work of others, but if you don’t know the situation and you haven’t seen the end result, it’s hardly fair or appropriate.
I’d just like to defend Samppa and Lukas here by saying that the guy didn’t go to a surgeon, he went to them, and they did what they could, the best they could.
The guy may not have had the large amount of money a plastic surgeon would have charged, and he might have been told by a doctor that since it’s not life threatening, he wouldn’t get it for free in the near future on his country’s medical system.
If you’ve ever watched S and L work, you’ll know they’re fanatical about sterility – of course the gloves are sterile – and it’s not like they’re dragging their bare arms (washed and scrubbed with antibacterial stuff) through the wounds.
Also I’d like to point out that Samppa does some of the neatest stitching I’ve ever seen, far better than any doctor my partner and I have been operated on by. In that photo, you can only really see the big stitches, but they’re just there to help keep the tension right – there’s actually loads of tiny neat stitches all the way up, in between.
It’s easy to sit behind your computer screen and slag off the work of others, but if you don’t know the situation and you haven’t seen the end result, it’s hardly fair or appropriate.
Oh my fucking god. Wow. In the first picture, they look so… like some type of parasite clinging to his skin and trying to burrow into it.
Oh my fucking god. Wow. In the first picture, they look so… like some type of parasite clinging to his skin and trying to burrow into it.
I think that this is fine for what it is.
Obviously, Lukas and Samppa are very experienced in the ways of cutting, and the guy with the keloids probably knew that there were other options he could have pursued.
If he wanted to go to a doctor, he probably would have. And, I don’t think that Lukas and Samppa just stitched him up and threw him out when they were finished. I’m sure they’ll be checking up on him, and if its necesarry, get him medical attention (e.g. in case an infection arises).
I think that this is fine for what it is.
Obviously, Lukas and Samppa are very experienced in the ways of cutting, and the guy with the keloids probably knew that there were other options he could have pursued.
If he wanted to go to a doctor, he probably would have. And, I don’t think that Lukas and Samppa just stitched him up and threw him out when they were finished. I’m sure they’ll be checking up on him, and if its necesarry, get him medical attention (e.g. in case an infection arises).
Thank you for posting that, Shannon. I also have the fear of many not taking scarification (or many mods for that matter) seriously in the sense that they do not seem prepared to suffer consequences if things do go wrong (or go right). Having these reminders will hopefully heighten the awareness towards the true, potential risks of body modification, even within ideal conditions. Afterall, what beauty and significance does body modification hold if there are no risks, sacrifices, or pain involved?
Thank you for posting that, Shannon. I also have the fear of many not taking scarification (or many mods for that matter) seriously in the sense that they do not seem prepared to suffer consequences if things do go wrong (or go right). Having these reminders will hopefully heighten the awareness towards the true, potential risks of body modification, even within ideal conditions. Afterall, what beauty and significance does body modification hold if there are no risks, sacrifices, or pain involved?
that’s out of controle allright!
that’s out of controle allright!
So is it the artists fault or not? Because I think it’s just how his body treats flesh removals: with big fat keloids. I wonder how it’s possible to find out that it was cut to deep 4 Months after the cutting…
So is it the artists fault or not? Because I think it’s just how his body treats flesh removals: with big fat keloids. I wonder how it’s possible to find out that it was cut to deep 4 Months after the cutting…
I absolutely agree with ausmoz.
From an infection control perspective this is a nightmare. It’s clearly not a sterile area: gloves don’t look sterile (and even if they were, they wern’t shortly after they came into contact with non-sterile arms due to no sterile scrub clothes), there’s no sterile drapes, and there doesn’t seem to be any betadine used to sterilise the surrounding skin.
The suturing is a little difficult to make out from the pictures, but the order in which they seem to have been placed is questionable as to how good the tension will end up.
I really hope this guy has read these posts and goes to his local doctor for some advice re: preventing/treating his inevitable infection.
Shannon, could you follow this guy up so we know how the story of his keloids ends?!?!
I absolutely agree with ausmoz.
From an infection control perspective this is a nightmare. It’s clearly not a sterile area: gloves don’t look sterile (and even if they were, they wern’t shortly after they came into contact with non-sterile arms due to no sterile scrub clothes), there’s no sterile drapes, and there doesn’t seem to be any betadine used to sterilise the surrounding skin.
The suturing is a little difficult to make out from the pictures, but the order in which they seem to have been placed is questionable as to how good the tension will end up.
I really hope this guy has read these posts and goes to his local doctor for some advice re: preventing/treating his inevitable infection.
Shannon, could you follow this guy up so we know how the story of his keloids ends?!?!
It does look like they’ve used some betadine in the pics on my monitor, but yes, there is a complete lack of sterility.
I also noticed one of those guys is wearing a ring under his gloves… so he couldn’t have been all that serious about washing his hands.
I was thinking… if this was done in a hospital situation, and they decided to excise a keloid that big, they might have just packed and dressed the wound, and left it to heal by secondary intention, rather than suturing it closed under so much tension.
Apart from surgical excision, there are medical treatments, like injecting steroids, pressure bandages, and dressings that could both reduce the keloid before surgery and decrease the chance of another keloid forming after surgery. I’m sure if this guy has had a lot of pain from these keloids, he’d appreciate the benefit he could derive from these treatments too.
I’d really like to hear any follow-up too. I sincerely hope it all works out well for him.
It does look like they’ve used some betadine in the pics on my monitor, but yes, there is a complete lack of sterility.
I also noticed one of those guys is wearing a ring under his gloves… so he couldn’t have been all that serious about washing his hands.
I was thinking… if this was done in a hospital situation, and they decided to excise a keloid that big, they might have just packed and dressed the wound, and left it to heal by secondary intention, rather than suturing it closed under so much tension.
Apart from surgical excision, there are medical treatments, like injecting steroids, pressure bandages, and dressings that could both reduce the keloid before surgery and decrease the chance of another keloid forming after surgery. I’m sure if this guy has had a lot of pain from these keloids, he’d appreciate the benefit he could derive from these treatments too.
I’d really like to hear any follow-up too. I sincerely hope it all works out well for him.
That’s not a good situation to be in for the guy or the people trying to help him – Hope it all works out.
That’s not a good situation to be in for the guy or the people trying to help him – Hope it all works out.
Ausmoz – The top of the scar appears to be over the xiphod process, which is cartilage.
Ausmoz – The top of the scar appears to be over the xiphod process, which is cartilage.
I’ll also add that I have seen doctors perform surgery when wearing rings, and also that these stitches look fine to me given the context.
I’ll also add that I have seen doctors perform surgery when wearing rings, and also that these stitches look fine to me given the context.
That looks.. That is.. Wow. I guess I WILL consider once more my future scarification..
I hope he won’t have any more keloids from those scar tissues, cause that looks effin’ painfull. And spooky. And unhealthy. And… Well, you get the point.
That looks.. That is.. Wow. I guess I WILL consider once more my future scarification..
I hope he won’t have any more keloids from those scar tissues, cause that looks effin’ painfull. And spooky. And unhealthy. And… Well, you get the point.
Interesting..
This should really be added to the keloids page in the BME Encyclopedia
(and I know I can do it myself, but I dont feel qualified to add them since I dont know anything more about keloids than what that page says.)
I hope this guy ends up ok & I would like to read follow ups
Interesting..
This should really be added to the keloids page in the BME Encyclopedia
(and I know I can do it myself, but I dont feel qualified to add them since I dont know anything more about keloids than what that page says.)
I hope this guy ends up ok & I would like to read follow ups
Ack poor guy, thats is NOT something you expect when you go to who is apparently a well known body mod artist. That being said personally I probably would have gone to a surgeon to get this pierced.
This almost puts me off getting one done, but i’m willing to trust mysely to Lukas, when I have enough money.
Ack poor guy, thats is NOT something you expect when you go to who is apparently a well known body mod artist. That being said personally I probably would have gone to a surgeon to get this pierced.
This almost puts me off getting one done, but i’m willing to trust mysely to Lukas, when I have enough money.
AJ — Nobody is “slagging off” anybody’s work here. That’s ridiculous. It’s not like we’re making fun of somebody’s tattoo or something. The critics here are saying — or at least I’M saying — that it was irresponsible for Samppa and Lukas to perform a fucking medical procedure that they had no business performing, just because somebody asked them to. Their intentions might have been good, but the fact that they went through with it is idiotic.
So, yes, it is ENTIRELY fair and ENTIRELY appropriate to say that when heavy mod practitioners stop doing what they normally do and instead decide that they’re fucking doctors just because they buy scalpels wholesale, that it’s stupid and dangerous and extremely bad for the people who are going to get lumped in with them.
And no, Teresina, it isn’t fine for what it is, because what it is is Soviet Russian back alley surgery, and it sets an incredibly dangerous precedent for any other moron who thinks he’s capable of doing discount medical procedures for friends.
AJ — Nobody is “slagging off” anybody’s work here. That’s ridiculous. It’s not like we’re making fun of somebody’s tattoo or something. The critics here are saying — or at least I’M saying — that it was irresponsible for Samppa and Lukas to perform a fucking medical procedure that they had no business performing, just because somebody asked them to. Their intentions might have been good, but the fact that they went through with it is idiotic.
So, yes, it is ENTIRELY fair and ENTIRELY appropriate to say that when heavy mod practitioners stop doing what they normally do and instead decide that they’re fucking doctors just because they buy scalpels wholesale, that it’s stupid and dangerous and extremely bad for the people who are going to get lumped in with them.
And no, Teresina, it isn’t fine for what it is, because what it is is Soviet Russian back alley surgery, and it sets an incredibly dangerous precedent for any other moron who thinks he’s capable of doing discount medical procedures for friends.
being scarificated myself couldn’t help to feel a knot in my stomach…
i just hope that the removal works out fine for that guy…
being scarificated myself couldn’t help to feel a knot in my stomach…
i just hope that the removal works out fine for that guy…
For everyone saying this guy should have gone to a doctor: I’m sure he considered that as one of his options, but realize that many professionals (not all but many) in the medical industry are weary and uneducated when it comes to body modification. The men he chose to help him are professionals in their own right. They are extreme body modification artists who are world renowned and have been doing this for years.
As for sterility and the “inevitable infection” people have been operated on, in hospitals by surgeons and still had things go wrong. Medical supplies have been left in body cavities, breast implants have been inserted and grown huge infections. What I’m trying to say is this client chose the practioners he felt could do the best job for him.
For everyone saying this guy should have gone to a doctor: I’m sure he considered that as one of his options, but realize that many professionals (not all but many) in the medical industry are weary and uneducated when it comes to body modification. The men he chose to help him are professionals in their own right. They are extreme body modification artists who are world renowned and have been doing this for years.
As for sterility and the “inevitable infection” people have been operated on, in hospitals by surgeons and still had things go wrong. Medical supplies have been left in body cavities, breast implants have been inserted and grown huge infections. What I’m trying to say is this client chose the practioners he felt could do the best job for him.
Eternal Ice, doctors were treating scars long before every piercer with a slow day decided to start doing scarification. The fact that some doctors are uneducated with regards to some aspects of body modification is neither here nor there in this case.
And yes, of course things go wrong in hospitals, but an accident in a medical environment is far removed from two guys who are not doctors performing surgery in god-knows what kind of setting. It was the client’s prerogative to approach them, yes, but they should not have agreed to do it.
If I need a tooth pulled, but I don’t like my dentist, I don’t go to the mechanic just because he has a wrench.
Eternal Ice, doctors were treating scars long before every piercer with a slow day decided to start doing scarification. The fact that some doctors are uneducated with regards to some aspects of body modification is neither here nor there in this case.
And yes, of course things go wrong in hospitals, but an accident in a medical environment is far removed from two guys who are not doctors performing surgery in god-knows what kind of setting. It was the client’s prerogative to approach them, yes, but they should not have agreed to do it.
If I need a tooth pulled, but I don’t like my dentist, I don’t go to the mechanic just because he has a wrench.
So Jordan, you’re saying that if the guy didn’t had the money to get the keloids removed by a doctor he must have bin keeping it that way?
So Jordan, you’re saying that if the guy didn’t had the money to get the keloids removed by a doctor he must have bin keeping it that way?
The guy with the scars has every right to ask every person he knows to remove his scars. What I’m saying is that anybody who actually agreed to do it — who was not a doctor that would have done it in a surgical setting — is an irresponsible idiot.
And as bad as the keloids were, my sympathy for the guy only goes so far. Anybody who gets this kind of stuff done should enter into it knowing full well that what they’re doing to their body is potentially very dangerous.
The guy with the scars has every right to ask every person he knows to remove his scars. What I’m saying is that anybody who actually agreed to do it — who was not a doctor that would have done it in a surgical setting — is an irresponsible idiot.
And as bad as the keloids were, my sympathy for the guy only goes so far. Anybody who gets this kind of stuff done should enter into it knowing full well that what they’re doing to their body is potentially very dangerous.
I totally agree with Jordan. Not to mention that to attempt to remove keloids that size is at the very best absolutely pointless as the result is often bigger keloids and more skin tension, whether you go to a certified surgeon or to a body mod artist. (Common sense says though that the former is far more likely to do a better job than the latter). From my understanding, cryosurgery and laser treatment are better options than surgical removal.
I would love to see a follow-up of this story as I’m willing to bet that the “customer” is not gonna be very happy with the result. I do hope though he escapes the nasty infection…
I totally agree with Jordan. Not to mention that to attempt to remove keloids that size is at the very best absolutely pointless as the result is often bigger keloids and more skin tension, whether you go to a certified surgeon or to a body mod artist. (Common sense says though that the former is far more likely to do a better job than the latter). From my understanding, cryosurgery and laser treatment are better options than surgical removal.
I would love to see a follow-up of this story as I’m willing to bet that the “customer” is not gonna be very happy with the result. I do hope though he escapes the nasty infection…
i’ve had 3 surgeries within the last year and the shit i’ve seen doctors do as far as sterility has made me want to throw up. i personally hate doctors and try to avoid them as much as possible. i can’t say (and i don’t think anyone in here can either) what the right thing to do would have been. doctors don’t always know what they are talking about. i had to explain to a doctor about the implant in the back of my hand and how it was able to sit there without messing up the function of my hand. this was one week prior to that same doctor putting a silicone implant into my knuckle. maybe the procedure was a little too advanced for them to be doing. maybe it just looks much worse than it really was. i dont think it’s fair to call the practioners irresponsible idiots just based on a few photos without any real back story or knowing the circumstances.
i’ve had 3 surgeries within the last year and the shit i’ve seen doctors do as far as sterility has made me want to throw up. i personally hate doctors and try to avoid them as much as possible. i can’t say (and i don’t think anyone in here can either) what the right thing to do would have been. doctors don’t always know what they are talking about. i had to explain to a doctor about the implant in the back of my hand and how it was able to sit there without messing up the function of my hand. this was one week prior to that same doctor putting a silicone implant into my knuckle. maybe the procedure was a little too advanced for them to be doing. maybe it just looks much worse than it really was. i dont think it’s fair to call the practioners irresponsible idiots just based on a few photos without any real back story or knowing the circumstances.
I haven’t seen the scars in person of course, but there are two arguments that I think should have been considered (and may well have — I’m not suggesting they were ignored) before resorting to a serious procedure:
1. Scars take a lot longer than one month to heal*. I have seen scars that blow up huge (to the point where they’re distorting surrounding tissue uncomfortably) during the first year or so, and then settle down, softening and shrinking dramatically.
2. It is also possible that steroid injections / creams as well as other non-surgical scar treatments could have dealt with it.
* I should also add that it’s possible that this scar is one year old and that month was a typo.
And I hope that Lukas or Samppa will comment if they’re reading this…
I haven’t seen the scars in person of course, but there are two arguments that I think should have been considered (and may well have — I’m not suggesting they were ignored) before resorting to a serious procedure:
1. Scars take a lot longer than one month to heal*. I have seen scars that blow up huge (to the point where they’re distorting surrounding tissue uncomfortably) during the first year or so, and then settle down, softening and shrinking dramatically.
2. It is also possible that steroid injections / creams as well as other non-surgical scar treatments could have dealt with it.
* I should also add that it’s possible that this scar is one year old and that month was a typo.
And I hope that Lukas or Samppa will comment if they’re reading this…
I can’t speak in Samppa’s case, but Lukas is known by other artists around the world for having incredibly… umm….. “relaxed” views toward cleanliness, disinfection, and sterility. I have worked on him, and seen him work up close, and I can tell you that I’ve seen some frightening things.
Anyway, there is no way to tell from the photos whether their gloves are sterile (or at least were sterile before use), so that’s a moot point. Regardless, it’s not of great concern. Control of cross-contamination issues is much more important, and that’s where training comes in. Remember, you’re only seeing a few out-of-context snapshots of what happened on this day, so it’s pretty useless to comment on cleanliness issues, unless there’s something obvious going on. But yes, they SHOULD have their arms covered.
Betadine isn’t the only product used to disinfect skin… TechniCare, which many practitioners have switched to, goes on clear. (I see that there is some type of product being used.)
As for the surgery itself, it looks alright considering the circumstances. Should the client have gone to a doctor? Of course. But that’s not always an option, for many reasons. Who’s to say that he didn’t consult a doctor first?
The stitches don’t look half-bad, either.
Smart move having the scars removed? Only time will tell. My scars take about 5 years to settle, so who knows?
I can’t speak in Samppa’s case, but Lukas is known by other artists around the world for having incredibly… umm….. “relaxed” views toward cleanliness, disinfection, and sterility. I have worked on him, and seen him work up close, and I can tell you that I’ve seen some frightening things.
Anyway, there is no way to tell from the photos whether their gloves are sterile (or at least were sterile before use), so that’s a moot point. Regardless, it’s not of great concern. Control of cross-contamination issues is much more important, and that’s where training comes in. Remember, you’re only seeing a few out-of-context snapshots of what happened on this day, so it’s pretty useless to comment on cleanliness issues, unless there’s something obvious going on. But yes, they SHOULD have their arms covered.
Betadine isn’t the only product used to disinfect skin… TechniCare, which many practitioners have switched to, goes on clear. (I see that there is some type of product being used.)
As for the surgery itself, it looks alright considering the circumstances. Should the client have gone to a doctor? Of course. But that’s not always an option, for many reasons. Who’s to say that he didn’t consult a doctor first?
The stitches don’t look half-bad, either.
Smart move having the scars removed? Only time will tell. My scars take about 5 years to settle, so who knows?
I am a big fan of Lukas and Samppa’s work. What they do, they do incredibly well.
But, I agree with the folks who say it should have been referred to a doctor.
I don’t care if the client does not like doctors. I don’t care if the guy could not afford a doctor. I don’t care if Lukas and Samppa had some personal reason for taking it on (Like, umm, I dunno, maybe they were friends with the original practitioner and wanted to clean up after him or something?)
This is not a procedure that should be done by an untrained person. You can be a world renowned piercer/mod artist/scarification artist. Best in the world, even, and that does not make you qualified to do everything that involves the skin and a pointy object.
It is not just about degree of training, it is the setting. In a medical center if something goes wrong, there is a whole staff of professionals ready to back you up. What if the client went into shock halfway through? Or got delerious from blood loss? Or started to sieze? Or had an MI from stress? For that matter what if one of the practitioners happened to pass out for unrelated reasons? How would they continue?
In a medical center, there are the methods, systems, trained personell and equipment to deal with such things, whether it’s on-staff nurse anesthetists, central oxygen, a defribrilator or just other equally skilled personell to step in and assist or consult, when needed.
Given that this client had a history of poor healing, either due to peculiarities of his skin structure and immune system or due to his aftercare, he was going into this with a very high chance of a less than satisfactory outcome. That chance rose when Lukas and Samppa agreed to perform the procdure they did.
Oh, and, btw, if it goes wrong again, maybe even moreso, does the bod mod community as a whole really need another run in with the law, either when this guy’s insurance company forces him to sue or when the state/province charges the practitioners with practicing without a license?
There are lstill lots of places where we have to fight tooth and nail to convince communites we are responsible business owners, not criminals. If this goes very bad, as it might, the adverse publicity will not help the bod mod community at all.
One word sums it up: irresponsible.
I am a big fan of Lukas and Samppa’s work. What they do, they do incredibly well.
But, I agree with the folks who say it should have been referred to a doctor.
I don’t care if the client does not like doctors. I don’t care if the guy could not afford a doctor. I don’t care if Lukas and Samppa had some personal reason for taking it on (Like, umm, I dunno, maybe they were friends with the original practitioner and wanted to clean up after him or something?)
This is not a procedure that should be done by an untrained person. You can be a world renowned piercer/mod artist/scarification artist. Best in the world, even, and that does not make you qualified to do everything that involves the skin and a pointy object.
It is not just about degree of training, it is the setting. In a medical center if something goes wrong, there is a whole staff of professionals ready to back you up. What if the client went into shock halfway through? Or got delerious from blood loss? Or started to sieze? Or had an MI from stress? For that matter what if one of the practitioners happened to pass out for unrelated reasons? How would they continue?
In a medical center, there are the methods, systems, trained personell and equipment to deal with such things, whether it’s on-staff nurse anesthetists, central oxygen, a defribrilator or just other equally skilled personell to step in and assist or consult, when needed.
Given that this client had a history of poor healing, either due to peculiarities of his skin structure and immune system or due to his aftercare, he was going into this with a very high chance of a less than satisfactory outcome. That chance rose when Lukas and Samppa agreed to perform the procdure they did.
Oh, and, btw, if it goes wrong again, maybe even moreso, does the bod mod community as a whole really need another run in with the law, either when this guy’s insurance company forces him to sue or when the state/province charges the practitioners with practicing without a license?
There are lstill lots of places where we have to fight tooth and nail to convince communites we are responsible business owners, not criminals. If this goes very bad, as it might, the adverse publicity will not help the bod mod community at all.
One word sums it up: irresponsible.
JESUS TITTYFUCKING CHRIST!
Where’s moddoctor when you want to read the view of a plastic surgeon?
Actually…while we’re on the subject of scars, I have a cross on the back of my left hand (done when I was about ten years old :/) that’s rather faded twelve years on…
It’s only about 1″ across…I’ve been thinking of strike-branding it.
Good idea for the back of the hand?
*n
JESUS TITTYFUCKING CHRIST!
Where’s moddoctor when you want to read the view of a plastic surgeon?
Actually…while we’re on the subject of scars, I have a cross on the back of my left hand (done when I was about ten years old :/) that’s rather faded twelve years on…
It’s only about 1″ across…I’ve been thinking of strike-branding it.
Good idea for the back of the hand?
*n
OMG!!!
i’m in shock :O
OMG!!!
i’m in shock :O
Speaking as someone with experience, there’s also the consideration that he didn’t want to go to a doctor because he didn’t want to be put in a mental institution. They still do that, you know.
**Although to be fair, I don’t know where this procedure was performed or where the person under the knife lives. Milage may vary.
Speaking as someone with experience, there’s also the consideration that he didn’t want to go to a doctor because he didn’t want to be put in a mental institution. They still do that, you know.
**Although to be fair, I don’t know where this procedure was performed or where the person under the knife lives. Milage may vary.
penski, i was also wondering about branding in areas where there are viens close to the surface, and thin skin. such as the under side of the wrist.
off topic i know, but any ideas any one?
penski, i was also wondering about branding in areas where there are viens close to the surface, and thin skin. such as the under side of the wrist.
off topic i know, but any ideas any one?
I’d like to know how many stitches it took!
this is a mod in itself, scare adjustment! I can’t wait to see the result in a couple of months…
I’d like to know how many stitches it took!
this is a mod in itself, scare adjustment! I can’t wait to see the result in a couple of months…
There is no denying that Samppa and Lukas are some of the best in the bod mod field. I agree with many that I would love to see the healed product of this work.
I love the second picture. I love how scar tissue looks when it has been cut through, (from personnel experience) it doesn’t ‘split open’ like flesh does – more just leaves a line. Seeing those wads of scar tissue is incredible.
I know this is a method they use in ‘professional’ plastic surgery for removing scars. Cutting out the scar tissue and then sowing the wound shut for less of a scar.
Absolutely amazing – one of the best modblog entries to date.
xXx
There is no denying that Samppa and Lukas are some of the best in the bod mod field. I agree with many that I would love to see the healed product of this work.
I love the second picture. I love how scar tissue looks when it has been cut through, (from personnel experience) it doesn’t ‘split open’ like flesh does – more just leaves a line. Seeing those wads of scar tissue is incredible.
I know this is a method they use in ‘professional’ plastic surgery for removing scars. Cutting out the scar tissue and then sowing the wound shut for less of a scar.
Absolutely amazing – one of the best modblog entries to date.
xXx
This made my heart hurt.
This made my heart hurt.
i think howie did that at the swiss mod meet.
i think howie did that at the swiss mod meet.
Great modblog post. where to buy higher resolution images!
Great modblog post. where to buy higher resolution images!
(They’ll be in their galleries / free next Tuesday I expect)
(They’ll be in their galleries / free next Tuesday I expect)
For what I’ve seen Mr. Zpira and Mr. Von Cyborg are great artists, but in the same way that doctors shouldn’t pierce or tattoo because they are not qualified for that, artists should not engage in surgery, because no matter how prepared they are, they haven’t had the formal training, a lot of things can go wrong. Of course that the man being operated has the right to go and have the keloids removed by whoever he considers best, it’s his body and he has the right to do whatever he wants with it, personally I’d go to a doctor, but that’s me, his decission must be respected.
For what I’ve seen Mr. Zpira and Mr. Von Cyborg are great artists, but in the same way that doctors shouldn’t pierce or tattoo because they are not qualified for that, artists should not engage in surgery, because no matter how prepared they are, they haven’t had the formal training, a lot of things can go wrong. Of course that the man being operated has the right to go and have the keloids removed by whoever he considers best, it’s his body and he has the right to do whatever he wants with it, personally I’d go to a doctor, but that’s me, his decission must be respected.
poor bastien.. t’as du morfler!
poor bastien.. t’as du morfler!
Ultimately, I think we should remember that depending on where this was done, these guys are practicing medicine without a licence.
They should not have agreed to do this procedure. It will be them, not the client, who will land in jail or with a stiff fine. So the client’s feelings about doctors are not an issue. Lidocaine in the injectable form is still a prescription medication. It should only be being used by or under the direction of a medical professional. If given at too high a rate it can cause heart arrhythmias.
As a medical professional, I am very aware of the legal ramifications of this. If something goes wrong, they have no form of legal protection against any type of civil or criminal lawsuits.
Ultimately, I think we should remember that depending on where this was done, these guys are practicing medicine without a licence.
They should not have agreed to do this procedure. It will be them, not the client, who will land in jail or with a stiff fine. So the client’s feelings about doctors are not an issue. Lidocaine in the injectable form is still a prescription medication. It should only be being used by or under the direction of a medical professional. If given at too high a rate it can cause heart arrhythmias.
As a medical professional, I am very aware of the legal ramifications of this. If something goes wrong, they have no form of legal protection against any type of civil or criminal lawsuits.
mmmmmmmm……………
mmmmmmmm……………
I agree with Nosimplehiway (comment 76) about the setting. Even if those guys were qualified surgeons, to operate in that context would be negligent.
Penski – I think moddoctor has said in the past that s/he is a “cosmetic dermatologist” rather than a plastic surgeon.
I agree with Nosimplehiway (comment 76) about the setting. Even if those guys were qualified surgeons, to operate in that context would be negligent.
Penski – I think moddoctor has said in the past that s/he is a “cosmetic dermatologist” rather than a plastic surgeon.
Shannon, those two points you made in comment 74 are both good reasons that these guys shouldn’t have gone ahead and done this procedure. I had mentioned a few of those non-surgical options in comment 59. As well as making the (potential) surgery easier, it’s quite possible that these treatments could have negated the need for surgery all together.
I too would be interested in hearing from Lukas and/or Samppa.
Shannon, those two points you made in comment 74 are both good reasons that these guys shouldn’t have gone ahead and done this procedure. I had mentioned a few of those non-surgical options in comment 59. As well as making the (potential) surgery easier, it’s quite possible that these treatments could have negated the need for surgery all together.
I too would be interested in hearing from Lukas and/or Samppa.
“watery-mouth-i’m-gonna-vomit”
I know exactly what you mean, phoenixxx.
“watery-mouth-i’m-gonna-vomit”
I know exactly what you mean, phoenixxx.
I echo the above “thanks for posting this, Shannon”. Some time in the future i want to get a stomach scarification piece, and those of us who’ve only seen good clean results need to have a different point of view like this shown to us.
I echo the above “thanks for posting this, Shannon”. Some time in the future i want to get a stomach scarification piece, and those of us who’ve only seen good clean results need to have a different point of view like this shown to us.
well, i met this gut today and scar looks really neat and he’s really really happy. He said that it’s amazing feeling that he can stad right again.
Procedure itself was pretty easy altought that it needs about 60 stitches. And yes we used sterile cloves and sterile everything and about scalpel blades…(btw ausmoz, can u came up with ur real name, please?) we used(me nr. 15 as usually and lukas nr.11) and what was wrong with blades? u need two different type of blade for it.
and about this quote: “Just look at the size of the keloid compared to the length of the incision/scar. It looks like the incision had to be extended signifigantly towards the nipple (and downwards to a lesser extent) due to poor planning and the skin not lining up – you can’t just sew a rounded cut like they’d made initially with sutures. The resulting scar is almost twice the length it needed to be.”
obviously u don’t have any idea about this kinda procedures…or then u don’t have eyes on ur head? or then u don’t just understand. there was so much tension that guy couldn’t even stand straight and of course when u cut that keloid half, it getting much longer as there’s no ant tension anymore.
and about stiches…i did exactly same thing what i’ve been teached by doctor (yes, i’ve learned from doctor. i haven’t been in medical school, like some ppl say that they been…but other than them, i can prove that doctors teached me to do all body modification and surgigal work what i can do now) and i used double stitches(don’t know right name in english, in finnish patjaommel), so there wasn’t much tension for those normal stitches.
and about infection risk…of course there’s always risk to get infection, if u get any bod mod of surgigal procedure, but sad but true u get bad infection much easier from hospital tho.
and we don’t think that we’re any doctors tho. we talked long time about should we removed or not and because it was so bad that it had to remove and this guy wanted me and lukas to do it instead any doctors and he totally understood risks, we deciced to help him.
and like u all see, it didn’t bleed much and we had cautery just in case if it start bleeding. we didn’t have to use it tho.
and we didn’t kicked this guy out after procedure. he was with us week under our control.
and someone asked how we can know that it was too deep cut by that practioner who did this “scarification”….there’s a pics on iam of fresh scar and if u understand anything about scarification, u can see that it was far too deep, as u can compare those random lines with cutting and skin removal”
anyway, now i’m gonna go to bed. i’ll keep posted about how it healing…so far it looks really good.
well, i met this gut today and scar looks really neat and he’s really really happy. He said that it’s amazing feeling that he can stad right again.
Procedure itself was pretty easy altought that it needs about 60 stitches. And yes we used sterile cloves and sterile everything and about scalpel blades…(btw ausmoz, can u came up with ur real name, please?) we used(me nr. 15 as usually and lukas nr.11) and what was wrong with blades? u need two different type of blade for it.
and about this quote: “Just look at the size of the keloid compared to the length of the incision/scar. It looks like the incision had to be extended signifigantly towards the nipple (and downwards to a lesser extent) due to poor planning and the skin not lining up – you can’t just sew a rounded cut like they’d made initially with sutures. The resulting scar is almost twice the length it needed to be.”
obviously u don’t have any idea about this kinda procedures…or then u don’t have eyes on ur head? or then u don’t just understand. there was so much tension that guy couldn’t even stand straight and of course when u cut that keloid half, it getting much longer as there’s no ant tension anymore.
and about stiches…i did exactly same thing what i’ve been teached by doctor (yes, i’ve learned from doctor. i haven’t been in medical school, like some ppl say that they been…but other than them, i can prove that doctors teached me to do all body modification and surgigal work what i can do now) and i used double stitches(don’t know right name in english, in finnish patjaommel), so there wasn’t much tension for those normal stitches.
and about infection risk…of course there’s always risk to get infection, if u get any bod mod of surgigal procedure, but sad but true u get bad infection much easier from hospital tho.
and we don’t think that we’re any doctors tho. we talked long time about should we removed or not and because it was so bad that it had to remove and this guy wanted me and lukas to do it instead any doctors and he totally understood risks, we deciced to help him.
and like u all see, it didn’t bleed much and we had cautery just in case if it start bleeding. we didn’t have to use it tho.
and we didn’t kicked this guy out after procedure. he was with us week under our control.
and someone asked how we can know that it was too deep cut by that practioner who did this “scarification”….there’s a pics on iam of fresh scar and if u understand anything about scarification, u can see that it was far too deep, as u can compare those random lines with cutting and skin removal”
anyway, now i’m gonna go to bed. i’ll keep posted about how it healing…so far it looks really good.
Iâm glad to hear that this man is doing well so far.
In talking about the length of the incision, I was comparing the pictures that were taken after the keloid was removed (that is, when the skin was no longer under tension from the keloid – http://modblog.bmezine.com/wp-content/uploads/200610052007-pix4.jpg) to the apparent length of the closed wound (http://modblog.bmezine.com/wp-content/uploads/200610052007-pix5.jpg). If Iâve misinterpreted the pictures I apologize, but to me, the closed wound looks a lot closer to the nipple than the open wound.
As for the shape of the excision, I think an âeye shapeâ? with pointed ends would have been preferable to the rounded/elliptical shape that you used (if the intention was to suture the wound closed). As far as the amount of tension goes, as I said earlier, I wonder if hospital surgeons would have preferred to leave the wound open, packed and dressed it, leaving it to heal by secondary intention, rather than closing it at all. Iâm not sure what they would have chosen to do, Iâm not claiming to be an expert.
I think the #11 scalpel blade was not a good choice for the excision. The shape of the blade promotes cuts that are too deep. While itâs not impossible to use (in that you can cut with it), itâs not a good choice â itâs more awkward to use than a rounded blade (like a #10 or a #20) would have been. I didnât know that youâd also used a #15 (there was no picture). I think a #15 blade is a little too small, but itâs better than the #11. Speaking of the depth, in the first picture I linked, the âcraterâ? left after the keloid was excised looks deeper at the bottom half (where the blood is pooling) than the top half, which I doubt was necessary. Again, I may be misinterpreting the photo, but thatâs all I have to go by.
Whatever you say about sterility, the fact remains that you were not in an operating theatre. The patient was on a non-sterile bench. He was wearing non-sterile clothes. Neither of you were wearing a sterile gown, so your arms were not sterile. The fact that Lukas was wearing a ring indicates that he scrubbed his hands sub-optimally. Creating a clean environment is not something that should be done by halves. When not everything is as sterile as possible, it is of little consequence that some of your equipment was sterile when you started. There is no doubt that the setting in which this manâs operation was performed would have increased his risk of infection over an appropriatly set-up operating theatre.
It goes without saying that if anything had gone seriously wrong, you would have been much less capable of dealing with it than a hospital with trained staff, appropriate medications, and life support.
Having said all of this, I still think this man would have benefited from the non-surgical options that have already been mentioned, and from appropriate keloid minimizing dressings/bandages post surgery.
Iâm glad to hear that this man is doing well so far.
In talking about the length of the incision, I was comparing the pictures that were taken after the keloid was removed (that is, when the skin was no longer under tension from the keloid – http://modblog.bmezine.com/wp-content/uploads/200610052007-pix4.jpg) to the apparent length of the closed wound (http://modblog.bmezine.com/wp-content/uploads/200610052007-pix5.jpg). If Iâve misinterpreted the pictures I apologize, but to me, the closed wound looks a lot closer to the nipple than the open wound.
As for the shape of the excision, I think an âeye shapeâ? with pointed ends would have been preferable to the rounded/elliptical shape that you used (if the intention was to suture the wound closed). As far as the amount of tension goes, as I said earlier, I wonder if hospital surgeons would have preferred to leave the wound open, packed and dressed it, leaving it to heal by secondary intention, rather than closing it at all. Iâm not sure what they would have chosen to do, Iâm not claiming to be an expert.
I think the #11 scalpel blade was not a good choice for the excision. The shape of the blade promotes cuts that are too deep. While itâs not impossible to use (in that you can cut with it), itâs not a good choice â itâs more awkward to use than a rounded blade (like a #10 or a #20) would have been. I didnât know that youâd also used a #15 (there was no picture). I think a #15 blade is a little too small, but itâs better than the #11. Speaking of the depth, in the first picture I linked, the âcraterâ? left after the keloid was excised looks deeper at the bottom half (where the blood is pooling) than the top half, which I doubt was necessary. Again, I may be misinterpreting the photo, but thatâs all I have to go by.
Whatever you say about sterility, the fact remains that you were not in an operating theatre. The patient was on a non-sterile bench. He was wearing non-sterile clothes. Neither of you were wearing a sterile gown, so your arms were not sterile. The fact that Lukas was wearing a ring indicates that he scrubbed his hands sub-optimally. Creating a clean environment is not something that should be done by halves. When not everything is as sterile as possible, it is of little consequence that some of your equipment was sterile when you started. There is no doubt that the setting in which this manâs operation was performed would have increased his risk of infection over an appropriatly set-up operating theatre.
It goes without saying that if anything had gone seriously wrong, you would have been much less capable of dealing with it than a hospital with trained staff, appropriate medications, and life support.
Having said all of this, I still think this man would have benefited from the non-surgical options that have already been mentioned, and from appropriate keloid minimizing dressings/bandages post surgery.
I’ve tried to post a comment in reply to samppa 2-3 times now without success. I don’t know if there is some sort of delay that I haven’t experienced before when posting here, or if the comment hasn’t been sent successfully. I’ve emailed the comment to Shannon (at the glider at zentastic address). He can post it for me if he likes.
I’ve tried to post a comment in reply to samppa 2-3 times now without success. I don’t know if there is some sort of delay that I haven’t experienced before when posting here, or if the comment hasn’t been sent successfully. I’ve emailed the comment to Shannon (at the glider at zentastic address). He can post it for me if he likes.
Merde..
Pourtant il avait l’air bien fait étant frais mais la croissance des cheloïdes est un peu anarchique..
Merde..
Pourtant il avait l’air bien fait étant frais mais la croissance des cheloïdes est un peu anarchique..
Ausmoz – I’m not sure why it put just those comments into the moderation queue… Maybe it was because of the length, I’m not sure.
In terms of your question as to healing it open, I don’t see a doctor doing that, because then you’re almost certainly going to have a worse keloid than you started with. Procedurally I think the way the client was put back together was pretty solid and just as good as what you’re going to get from a doctor.
Ausmoz – I’m not sure why it put just those comments into the moderation queue… Maybe it was because of the length, I’m not sure.
In terms of your question as to healing it open, I don’t see a doctor doing that, because then you’re almost certainly going to have a worse keloid than you started with. Procedurally I think the way the client was put back together was pretty solid and just as good as what you’re going to get from a doctor.
I think Samppa raises and interesting point as well — while it’s true that you can get antibiotics more easily from a doctor, it is also true that had this procedure been done in a hospital, the statistical odds of a serious infection may well have been much higher…
I think Samppa raises and interesting point as well — while it’s true that you can get antibiotics more easily from a doctor, it is also true that had this procedure been done in a hospital, the statistical odds of a serious infection may well have been much higher…
I think it’s really bad that the practioner who made this scar
is unnamed. If Shannon doesn’t know who it was, Samppa or the guy who has these keloids or anybody who knows for sure should reveal his name.
And whatever people say here about the risks of skin removal, the biggest risks are irresponsible wannabe bod mod artists who fuck up people like that and then can get away with it. Taking scarification seriously is to a big extent choosing the good practioner and avoiding the bad one, but how you can avoid them if they are “well-known” bod mod artists whose name is hidden when they ruin somebody’s body like that. I think it’s really incredible that it’s written that “it’s not the point of the entry to reveal his name” but to me that is!
There was one mention of a probable mod artist who did this on this forum, well – i was considering of getting some heavy skin removal from him, and i’m not the person who doesn’t take scarification seriously, i already have a large skin removal. So for fuck’s sake – reveal the name of the practioner, hiding it is irresponsible as in this case it can happen to somebody else.
I think it’s really bad that the practioner who made this scar
is unnamed. If Shannon doesn’t know who it was, Samppa or the guy who has these keloids or anybody who knows for sure should reveal his name.
And whatever people say here about the risks of skin removal, the biggest risks are irresponsible wannabe bod mod artists who fuck up people like that and then can get away with it. Taking scarification seriously is to a big extent choosing the good practioner and avoiding the bad one, but how you can avoid them if they are “well-known” bod mod artists whose name is hidden when they ruin somebody’s body like that. I think it’s really incredible that it’s written that “it’s not the point of the entry to reveal his name” but to me that is!
There was one mention of a probable mod artist who did this on this forum, well – i was considering of getting some heavy skin removal from him, and i’m not the person who doesn’t take scarification seriously, i already have a large skin removal. So for fuck’s sake – reveal the name of the practioner, hiding it is irresponsible as in this case it can happen to somebody else.
It’s true that there is probably a higher chance of picking up an antibiotic resistant strain of S. aureus (for example) in most hospitals than in the community (depending on whether S. aureus is prevalent in hospitals in whatever country that was). BUT that’s not to say that this patient didn’t have a higher risk of infection (including with S. aureus) overall – that much is obvious from the pictures.
I don’t think there’s any question that the benefits of being operated on in a hospital outweigh the risks.
It’s true that there is probably a higher chance of picking up an antibiotic resistant strain of S. aureus (for example) in most hospitals than in the community (depending on whether S. aureus is prevalent in hospitals in whatever country that was). BUT that’s not to say that this patient didn’t have a higher risk of infection (including with S. aureus) overall – that much is obvious from the pictures.
I don’t think there’s any question that the benefits of being operated on in a hospital outweigh the risks.
In the above comment (#102):
“depending on whether S. aureus is prevalent in hospitals in whatever country that was”
should be
“depending on whether antibiotic resistant S. aureus is prevalent in hospitals in whatever country that was”
Non-antibiotic resistant S. aureus is pretty much everywhere.
In the above comment (#102):
“depending on whether S. aureus is prevalent in hospitals in whatever country that was”
should be
“depending on whether antibiotic resistant S. aureus is prevalent in hospitals in whatever country that was”
Non-antibiotic resistant S. aureus is pretty much everywhere.
Hi Ausmoz – do you have a name, or choose to remain anonymous for any particular reason?
Hi Ausmoz – do you have a name, or choose to remain anonymous for any particular reason?
re: name of the practitioner…
Just a theory…
We don’t know the back story of the client getting the original scars. It may have been some wacky, experimental scarring that the practitioner had to be essentially talked into, with the clear understanding that there may be a poor outcome. The client may have agreed to keep the practitioner’s name quiet as a condition of it’s being performed.
As far as infection and setting goes, there are two flaws in the reasoning on this thread: first is an appeal to probability, the idea that because some patients get infections in hospitals, that this patient would get an infection in a hospital. Second, that because hospitals sometimes transmit infections, that any setting other than a hospital is less likely to transmit an infection.
Maybe I am misunderstanding the pro-Samppa/Lukas folks, but the reasoning on the second argument seems like it goes something like this:
1. Hospitals are places where people get infections.
2. This procedure was performed outside a hospital.
3. Therefore, this procedure will not likely result in an infection.
If I have misrepresented the argument, please correct me.
re: name of the practitioner…
Just a theory…
We don’t know the back story of the client getting the original scars. It may have been some wacky, experimental scarring that the practitioner had to be essentially talked into, with the clear understanding that there may be a poor outcome. The client may have agreed to keep the practitioner’s name quiet as a condition of it’s being performed.
As far as infection and setting goes, there are two flaws in the reasoning on this thread: first is an appeal to probability, the idea that because some patients get infections in hospitals, that this patient would get an infection in a hospital. Second, that because hospitals sometimes transmit infections, that any setting other than a hospital is less likely to transmit an infection.
Maybe I am misunderstanding the pro-Samppa/Lukas folks, but the reasoning on the second argument seems like it goes something like this:
1. Hospitals are places where people get infections.
2. This procedure was performed outside a hospital.
3. Therefore, this procedure will not likely result in an infection.
If I have misrepresented the argument, please correct me.
If the original practitioner is named, will open and free discussion of ‘pioneering artists’ who have taken a stance of “you knew the dangers when I did the procedure. I will not assist you now that it has gone wrong.” be encouraged?
*n
If the original practitioner is named, will open and free discussion of ‘pioneering artists’ who have taken a stance of “you knew the dangers when I did the procedure. I will not assist you now that it has gone wrong.” be encouraged?
*n
Ausmoz – regarding distance from the nipple:
Note that in the ‘open wound ‘ photos, his arms are raised, pulling the tissue of the chest upwards. He is also laying supine.
In the ‘stitched’ photo, his arms are down. He is also standing up so gravity has a bit of an effect also.
In my opinion, this is what has contributed to the incision appearing closer to the nipple.
*n
Ausmoz – regarding distance from the nipple:
Note that in the ‘open wound ‘ photos, his arms are raised, pulling the tissue of the chest upwards. He is also laying supine.
In the ‘stitched’ photo, his arms are down. He is also standing up so gravity has a bit of an effect also.
In my opinion, this is what has contributed to the incision appearing closer to the nipple.
*n
Firstly i would like to say that people (Ausmoz in particular) should stop sitting there commenting on what Samppa and Lukas should or shouldn’t of done, you were not there and you did not see the procedure, saying they should of used one type of scalpel blade or this type is just wrong, if you knew anything about Bodmod work you would know its what you feel comfortable using, and with their knowledge on Bodymodification, i am most sure they were the right implements. And saying he should of gone to a doctor, please have you seen some of the results coming out of hospitals these days, you are more likely to pick up MRSA or something, and thats not the point the guy in person felt more comfortable going to Samppa and Lukas. I know Samppa very well and am very good friends with him and have been with him assisting while he has done mod works and i can tell you his level of hygiene and knowledge on cross-contamination is a hell of a lot higher than in any hospital i have been to over here, and ofcourse they prepped before and scrubbed where they should, i would know i have seen him work before, how the hell can you comment on such things from only seeing a few pictures, you never saw the whole procedure. It really makes me pissed off that people just sit there and make such negative comments and say what other people should of done. Everyone is free to make there own decisions and his was to let Samppa and Lukas do this procedure, and they done a fucking good job at it, remember this guy couldn’t even stand up straight from the tension of the scars.
And to say that a doctor may of left the would open and just dressed it and let it heal by secondary intention, what the fuck how the hell can you say that, do you realise the size of the wound? if anyone doesn’t have knowledge on these type of things then its the people writing these things. I have refered this to a family member of mine who is a surgeon, and what did she say, its the same that they would of done if they had a case like this, and NO THEY WOULD DEFINATELY NOT OF LEFT THE WOUND OPEN!
Yes we actually saw the person last night who got the work done and i cant tell you how happy he is, its just such a relief for him and he is overjoyed at how its healing!
Seeing it myself personally, its healing really well and the stiches look great, Samppa does the neatist stiches i have ever seen, and seeing this guy last night just proved that!
All i can say is Well done to Samppa and Lukas, you done a great job, and being one of the few people here to have seen the results in person. Its always easy to just sit there and say what people should of done especially when you remain anonomous. Samppa and Lukas have extreme amount of knowledge on these procedures and have learnt from doctors, they would not perform the procedures if they wernt confident that they knew exactly what they were doing! Well done
Firstly i would like to say that people (Ausmoz in particular) should stop sitting there commenting on what Samppa and Lukas should or shouldn’t of done, you were not there and you did not see the procedure, saying they should of used one type of scalpel blade or this type is just wrong, if you knew anything about Bodmod work you would know its what you feel comfortable using, and with their knowledge on Bodymodification, i am most sure they were the right implements. And saying he should of gone to a doctor, please have you seen some of the results coming out of hospitals these days, you are more likely to pick up MRSA or something, and thats not the point the guy in person felt more comfortable going to Samppa and Lukas. I know Samppa very well and am very good friends with him and have been with him assisting while he has done mod works and i can tell you his level of hygiene and knowledge on cross-contamination is a hell of a lot higher than in any hospital i have been to over here, and ofcourse they prepped before and scrubbed where they should, i would know i have seen him work before, how the hell can you comment on such things from only seeing a few pictures, you never saw the whole procedure. It really makes me pissed off that people just sit there and make such negative comments and say what other people should of done. Everyone is free to make there own decisions and his was to let Samppa and Lukas do this procedure, and they done a fucking good job at it, remember this guy couldn’t even stand up straight from the tension of the scars.
And to say that a doctor may of left the would open and just dressed it and let it heal by secondary intention, what the fuck how the hell can you say that, do you realise the size of the wound? if anyone doesn’t have knowledge on these type of things then its the people writing these things. I have refered this to a family member of mine who is a surgeon, and what did she say, its the same that they would of done if they had a case like this, and NO THEY WOULD DEFINATELY NOT OF LEFT THE WOUND OPEN!
Yes we actually saw the person last night who got the work done and i cant tell you how happy he is, its just such a relief for him and he is overjoyed at how its healing!
Seeing it myself personally, its healing really well and the stiches look great, Samppa does the neatist stiches i have ever seen, and seeing this guy last night just proved that!
All i can say is Well done to Samppa and Lukas, you done a great job, and being one of the few people here to have seen the results in person. Its always easy to just sit there and say what people should of done especially when you remain anonomous. Samppa and Lukas have extreme amount of knowledge on these procedures and have learnt from doctors, they would not perform the procedures if they wernt confident that they knew exactly what they were doing! Well done
i actually felt sick looking at those pics…and i am a pretty desensitized person. it was the stitches…like the skin stretched over the stuff.
sorry i know the convo has gone in a different way by now, but i am like…stunned.
i actually felt sick looking at those pics…and i am a pretty desensitized person. it was the stitches…like the skin stretched over the stuff.
sorry i know the convo has gone in a different way by now, but i am like…stunned.
The people defending this on the grounds of, “They did it just as well/better than a doctor would have” or “The person would have been more likely to get an infection in the hospital” or anything like that is missing the goddamn point.
Maybe Lukas and Samppa are brilliant medical minds and missed their callings as surgeons. I don’t know, but it doesn’t make a difference either way. The fact of the matter remains that, in spite of their relative skills or knowledge, they had no business doing a surgical procedure like this.
It doesn’t matter what kinds of scalpels they used, how good their sutures were, or if they were wearing fucking hazmat suits for the entire thing. THEY ARE NOT SURGEONS.
The problem here is that it sets a very dangerous precedent. There’s already a sentiment growing in this “community” that people, practitioners and clients alike, know more than doctors. This is bullshit. Maybe doctors are not quite as informed about certain aspects and particular things, but by and large, they know a hell of a lot fucking more than most other people with regards to this kind of stuff.
Any asshole with a scalpel already considers himself a scarification “artist.” If what Samppa and Lukas have done here is accepted and applauded — which is just blowing my fucking mind, by the way — then what’s to stop that same asshole from thinking he’s a fucking surgeon?
People are going to start dying, and other people are going to start going to prison (as well they should), and everybody involved will have fucked any chance of legitimacy for more extreme modification procedures. So think about that when you decide to cut somebody’s torso open in your studio, or when you support somebody who does.
The people defending this on the grounds of, “They did it just as well/better than a doctor would have” or “The person would have been more likely to get an infection in the hospital” or anything like that is missing the goddamn point.
Maybe Lukas and Samppa are brilliant medical minds and missed their callings as surgeons. I don’t know, but it doesn’t make a difference either way. The fact of the matter remains that, in spite of their relative skills or knowledge, they had no business doing a surgical procedure like this.
It doesn’t matter what kinds of scalpels they used, how good their sutures were, or if they were wearing fucking hazmat suits for the entire thing. THEY ARE NOT SURGEONS.
The problem here is that it sets a very dangerous precedent. There’s already a sentiment growing in this “community” that people, practitioners and clients alike, know more than doctors. This is bullshit. Maybe doctors are not quite as informed about certain aspects and particular things, but by and large, they know a hell of a lot fucking more than most other people with regards to this kind of stuff.
Any asshole with a scalpel already considers himself a scarification “artist.” If what Samppa and Lukas have done here is accepted and applauded — which is just blowing my fucking mind, by the way — then what’s to stop that same asshole from thinking he’s a fucking surgeon?
People are going to start dying, and other people are going to start going to prison (as well they should), and everybody involved will have fucked any chance of legitimacy for more extreme modification procedures. So think about that when you decide to cut somebody’s torso open in your studio, or when you support somebody who does.
Can’t it be seen that this entire procedure was, in base terms, just large-scale skin removal? Neither artist proclaims themselves to be a doctor, but both regularly perform skin removal without great uproar.
If arguments are flying that no bodymod practitioner has ‘business’ performing serious fixes like this, then surely we are back to the stage of questioning if former body piercers should have ever picked up a scalpel in the first place…?
I do not ‘applaud’ the procedure, nor condemn it; however the client was obviously comfortable going to Samppa and Lukas with the intention of having the keloids removed in the same manner as a skin removal. Medical politics should not come into it.
Can’t it be seen that this entire procedure was, in base terms, just large-scale skin removal? Neither artist proclaims themselves to be a doctor, but both regularly perform skin removal without great uproar.
If arguments are flying that no bodymod practitioner has ‘business’ performing serious fixes like this, then surely we are back to the stage of questioning if former body piercers should have ever picked up a scalpel in the first place…?
I do not ‘applaud’ the procedure, nor condemn it; however the client was obviously comfortable going to Samppa and Lukas with the intention of having the keloids removed in the same manner as a skin removal. Medical politics should not come into it.
The original practitioner was already outted as Howie. Many sketchy proceedures and minor aged recipients have gone under his blade.
The original practitioner was already outted as Howie. Many sketchy proceedures and minor aged recipients have gone under his blade.
Nosimplehiway – I don’t think anyone has used that as an argument; it’s more of an aside comment.
Jordan – The problem is that if you’re going to say that *this* procedure goes too far, you have to say the same for ALL forms of implants and most forms of scarification. Are you willing to say that?
Nosimplehiway – I don’t think anyone has used that as an argument; it’s more of an aside comment.
Jordan – The problem is that if you’re going to say that *this* procedure goes too far, you have to say the same for ALL forms of implants and most forms of scarification. Are you willing to say that?
yeah what i have to say sort of echos what shannon just said
i mean everyone is flipping out about “oh god it was a surgical procedure and blah blah they should be doing it”
from what i see it looks like a skin removal, or if anything else similar to a nipple removal just abit larger
this procedure is rahter tame compared to some things that are done really
so they shouldnt be doing medical procedures right ok then, so no more implants, no more transscrotals, no more tongue splitting, no more ear pointing, and it goes without saying castration and ampuation are out
and hell dermal punching and scarification are out too, cause well its useing a medical device so its practicing medicine without a license
something that was mentioned that really was never taken into consideration is there is a very good chance if he went to a doctor with this they could and probably would try to have him commited for self harm, and you know what for all we know he could have went to a doctor and they refused to help him
and there is a good chance thats is what happend, most doctors do not know or understand what we do and will refuse to do anything that crosses the bondery of whats normal for them
i guess the point really is, you dont know whats going on till you get the whole story, and making blanket statements is dangerous to our community and well freedom to do what we want
people pretend that this is something they do everyday, no it was an extreme case that in my opinion had to be done to help a person live a better life, well not even an extreme case cause people are blowing it way out of proportion as useal (drama queens)
yeah what i have to say sort of echos what shannon just said
i mean everyone is flipping out about “oh god it was a surgical procedure and blah blah they should be doing it”
from what i see it looks like a skin removal, or if anything else similar to a nipple removal just abit larger
this procedure is rahter tame compared to some things that are done really
so they shouldnt be doing medical procedures right ok then, so no more implants, no more transscrotals, no more tongue splitting, no more ear pointing, and it goes without saying castration and ampuation are out
and hell dermal punching and scarification are out too, cause well its useing a medical device so its practicing medicine without a license
something that was mentioned that really was never taken into consideration is there is a very good chance if he went to a doctor with this they could and probably would try to have him commited for self harm, and you know what for all we know he could have went to a doctor and they refused to help him
and there is a good chance thats is what happend, most doctors do not know or understand what we do and will refuse to do anything that crosses the bondery of whats normal for them
i guess the point really is, you dont know whats going on till you get the whole story, and making blanket statements is dangerous to our community and well freedom to do what we want
people pretend that this is something they do everyday, no it was an extreme case that in my opinion had to be done to help a person live a better life, well not even an extreme case cause people are blowing it way out of proportion as useal (drama queens)
jordan, jordan, jordan…where to begin with just how wrong you are?
first of all, doctors are not the only people qualified to perform medical procedures. nurses perform a huge number of surgical procedures. paramedics also have the ability to perform quite a few emergency surgical procedures. there are countless other individuals…midwives, bush medics, even witch doctors…that are either self-trained or taught through exposure who are far more experienced and qualified than an MD to perform procedures such as this.
secondly, the type of mods that lukas and samppa do ARE medical procedures
next, neither of them have said or insinuated that they will ‘stop doing what they normally do and instead decide that they’re fucking doctors just because they buy scalpels wholesale’
continued next comment…
jordan, jordan, jordan…where to begin with just how wrong you are?
first of all, doctors are not the only people qualified to perform medical procedures. nurses perform a huge number of surgical procedures. paramedics also have the ability to perform quite a few emergency surgical procedures. there are countless other individuals…midwives, bush medics, even witch doctors…that are either self-trained or taught through exposure who are far more experienced and qualified than an MD to perform procedures such as this.
secondly, the type of mods that lukas and samppa do ARE medical procedures
next, neither of them have said or insinuated that they will ‘stop doing what they normally do and instead decide that they’re fucking doctors just because they buy scalpels wholesale’
continued next comment…
“i guess the point really is, you dont know whats going on till you get the whole story, and making blanket statements is dangerous to our community and well freedom to do what we want”
This sums the entire thing up PERFECTLY. Thank you, Pauly.
Hell I know of people that have been almost commited for suspending in a public place, because the ‘authorities’ didn’t “understand” why we would do that to ourselves, so I can only imagine what would happen IF this person went to a hospital. Once again, we dont know the WHOLE story and while everyone can certainly voice their (very valid) opinions, what seems to start off as opinions seem to work their way into statements and ‘factual arguments’.
Maybe it seems like I’m talking out of my ass, but stuff like this concerns me, as well as the entire body mod community. Alot of my work has been “surgical procedures”, a number of dermal punches (biopsy punch = surgical), scalpelled piercings, tongue split, scarification, so Shannons’ question to Jordan is certainly one that I await a response to.
/rant.
“i guess the point really is, you dont know whats going on till you get the whole story, and making blanket statements is dangerous to our community and well freedom to do what we want”
This sums the entire thing up PERFECTLY. Thank you, Pauly.
Hell I know of people that have been almost commited for suspending in a public place, because the ‘authorities’ didn’t “understand” why we would do that to ourselves, so I can only imagine what would happen IF this person went to a hospital. Once again, we dont know the WHOLE story and while everyone can certainly voice their (very valid) opinions, what seems to start off as opinions seem to work their way into statements and ‘factual arguments’.
Maybe it seems like I’m talking out of my ass, but stuff like this concerns me, as well as the entire body mod community. Alot of my work has been “surgical procedures”, a number of dermal punches (biopsy punch = surgical), scalpelled piercings, tongue split, scarification, so Shannons’ question to Jordan is certainly one that I await a response to.
/rant.
If the original artist was in fact howie, I would like to say that I have personally seen some of Howie’s scar removal (a smaller scale of what happened here) and I was blown away by the results.
There is alot of talk about what is acceptable and not acceptable by “extreme body artists” in this thread, and I think people are over generalizing both sides. This whole thing is a gray area. When does a scar become to large for a top artist to remove? This procedure is midly more dangerous then some extreme procedures that are done on a very normal basis imo.
What zpira and samppa did may of been borderline, they said the client was under their supervision for a week however. It’s not like they just did this large procedure then flew out of town and let him to fend for himself.
And as for talk about which blade is more suited. Zpira’s has the ability to weild a scalpel and do some pretty fancy cuts in on some sort of tai-chi fluid motions. I’m sure his scalpel choice did not endanger or hinder his work on this client.
If the original artist was in fact howie, I would like to say that I have personally seen some of Howie’s scar removal (a smaller scale of what happened here) and I was blown away by the results.
There is alot of talk about what is acceptable and not acceptable by “extreme body artists” in this thread, and I think people are over generalizing both sides. This whole thing is a gray area. When does a scar become to large for a top artist to remove? This procedure is midly more dangerous then some extreme procedures that are done on a very normal basis imo.
What zpira and samppa did may of been borderline, they said the client was under their supervision for a week however. It’s not like they just did this large procedure then flew out of town and let him to fend for himself.
And as for talk about which blade is more suited. Zpira’s has the ability to weild a scalpel and do some pretty fancy cuts in on some sort of tai-chi fluid motions. I’m sure his scalpel choice did not endanger or hinder his work on this client.
I’m sure Jordan will answer on his own as well on different points, but playing devil’s advocate to my own question there are two main differences:
1. This procedure involves the removal of a large amount of tissue. That makes it legally problematic in many countries, both in terms of the procedure itself and the disposal of the tissue. (This also affects skin removal scarification, but not implants).
2. (and this is the main one:) This is a procedure that doctors do, and are trained to do. That doesn’t mean they can do it better, but it means they can make a legal case that it’s their “territory”.
As I see it, this procedure (which appears to have been done as responsibly as possible) is not “more intense” than others that have been documented here and on BME and elsewhere, but it does involve some legal “technicalities” that could make it problematic.
I’m sure Jordan will answer on his own as well on different points, but playing devil’s advocate to my own question there are two main differences:
1. This procedure involves the removal of a large amount of tissue. That makes it legally problematic in many countries, both in terms of the procedure itself and the disposal of the tissue. (This also affects skin removal scarification, but not implants).
2. (and this is the main one:) This is a procedure that doctors do, and are trained to do. That doesn’t mean they can do it better, but it means they can make a legal case that it’s their “territory”.
As I see it, this procedure (which appears to have been done as responsibly as possible) is not “more intense” than others that have been documented here and on BME and elsewhere, but it does involve some legal “technicalities” that could make it problematic.
Here is a photo of the cutting/removal fresh
Here is a photo of the cutting/removal fresh
that is some intense scarring for a month old cutting.
I wish there was some some day to day time lapse photos!
that is some intense scarring for a month old cutting.
I wish there was some some day to day time lapse photos!
While it is true that this community often supports unlicensed practitioners performing procedures like castration, trans-scrotals, tongue splitting and others that should be in the purview of organized medicine, that is because the medical community largely refuses to perform them on an elective basis.
When someone approaches a cutter for those procedures, both parties understand that there is virtually no other way to achieve the same effect and therefore are willing to accept the higher risks associated with an unlicensed practitioner.
But in the case of this procedure, the client could, had he chosen to, gone to a physician. More precisely, I think it’s safe to assume that since the client had pain and reduced function, had the unlicensed practitioners refused to perform the procedure he would have been forced to use legitimate medicine… which is superior to other forms of treatment. (Sigh. A point I am just tired of arguing… if you think hospitals are such hotbeds of incompetence and cesspits of infection, then burn your insurance cards and have “I refuse all medical treatment, take me to a piercer instead” tattooed on your chest. Any takers?)
The reason unlicensed practitioners are rarely called on to perform breast augmentation, rhinoplasty or the removal of a benign skin tumor is because the legitimate medical community provides these procedures.
Underground cutters should be an option of last resort.
As for the new pic… I am far from an expert, but that looks like a big, but not exceptionally huge, skin removal. Did something unsual happen to promote the keloiding? And is it maybe time to quit dancing around the issue and get the client on here to tell his story in his own words? What happened during healing? Did he have a history of heavy keloids? Why did he not go to a doctor?
While it is true that this community often supports unlicensed practitioners performing procedures like castration, trans-scrotals, tongue splitting and others that should be in the purview of organized medicine, that is because the medical community largely refuses to perform them on an elective basis.
When someone approaches a cutter for those procedures, both parties understand that there is virtually no other way to achieve the same effect and therefore are willing to accept the higher risks associated with an unlicensed practitioner.
But in the case of this procedure, the client could, had he chosen to, gone to a physician. More precisely, I think it’s safe to assume that since the client had pain and reduced function, had the unlicensed practitioners refused to perform the procedure he would have been forced to use legitimate medicine… which is superior to other forms of treatment. (Sigh. A point I am just tired of arguing… if you think hospitals are such hotbeds of incompetence and cesspits of infection, then burn your insurance cards and have “I refuse all medical treatment, take me to a piercer instead” tattooed on your chest. Any takers?)
The reason unlicensed practitioners are rarely called on to perform breast augmentation, rhinoplasty or the removal of a benign skin tumor is because the legitimate medical community provides these procedures.
Underground cutters should be an option of last resort.
As for the new pic… I am far from an expert, but that looks like a big, but not exceptionally huge, skin removal. Did something unsual happen to promote the keloiding? And is it maybe time to quit dancing around the issue and get the client on here to tell his story in his own words? What happened during healing? Did he have a history of heavy keloids? Why did he not go to a doctor?
I have personally had a scar removal on my chest. I wish him all the best of luck. I went to many plastic surgeons whom wanted nothing to do with me, and tried to give me over the counter remedies that did nothing for my preexisting scars. I really should submit my pictures.
I have personally had a scar removal on my chest. I wish him all the best of luck. I went to many plastic surgeons whom wanted nothing to do with me, and tried to give me over the counter remedies that did nothing for my preexisting scars. I really should submit my pictures.
I firmly believe that this is going too far, and I am unwavering on that point.
That said, I think a lot of other practitioners go too far with procedures that people here just accept as “extreme” now, as well.
There is a lot of very, very dangerous stuff being done now about which neither clients nor practitioners know nearly enough.
What it comes down to is this: At what point are we going to admit to ourselves that the danger that people are putting themselves in outweighs the benefits one might receive from looking the way he or she wants to look?
If things like this are setting the standard for acceptibility, then the industry needs to be regulated. Sorry, but it’s the truth.
You need licenses to do things far less dangerous than implanting objects under peoples’ skin and removing large chunks of flesh from their bodies. I have no ethical or moral problems with a certain degree of medical training being required by anybody who wants to facilitate more “extreme” modifications. If it stifles the industry, so be it. I’d rather have a much smaller, more contained group of practitioners whose expertise and qualifications can be depended upon than an open market where you don’t know a butcher from a master.
The “community” is much, much too secretive as it is, all in the name of protection. Protection of whom? Of ostensibily well-renowned “artists” who cause people serious bodily harm? Because the industry relies so heavily on reputation and cliques that if you dare criticize somebody, you’ll have a throng of their sycophantic customers jump down your throat? This is madness. And I’m not saying it’s exclusive to body modification, but god damn it, if you get fucked up by an implant, there’s no way to file a malpractice complaint!
If this industry doesn’t make any attempt to save itself, then it’s going to find itself in a deep pile of shit, and it will have nobody to blame but itself. And it will deserve all the shit that it catches as a result.
I firmly believe that this is going too far, and I am unwavering on that point.
That said, I think a lot of other practitioners go too far with procedures that people here just accept as “extreme” now, as well.
There is a lot of very, very dangerous stuff being done now about which neither clients nor practitioners know nearly enough.
What it comes down to is this: At what point are we going to admit to ourselves that the danger that people are putting themselves in outweighs the benefits one might receive from looking the way he or she wants to look?
If things like this are setting the standard for acceptibility, then the industry needs to be regulated. Sorry, but it’s the truth.
You need licenses to do things far less dangerous than implanting objects under peoples’ skin and removing large chunks of flesh from their bodies. I have no ethical or moral problems with a certain degree of medical training being required by anybody who wants to facilitate more “extreme” modifications. If it stifles the industry, so be it. I’d rather have a much smaller, more contained group of practitioners whose expertise and qualifications can be depended upon than an open market where you don’t know a butcher from a master.
The “community” is much, much too secretive as it is, all in the name of protection. Protection of whom? Of ostensibily well-renowned “artists” who cause people serious bodily harm? Because the industry relies so heavily on reputation and cliques that if you dare criticize somebody, you’ll have a throng of their sycophantic customers jump down your throat? This is madness. And I’m not saying it’s exclusive to body modification, but god damn it, if you get fucked up by an implant, there’s no way to file a malpractice complaint!
If this industry doesn’t make any attempt to save itself, then it’s going to find itself in a deep pile of shit, and it will have nobody to blame but itself. And it will deserve all the shit that it catches as a result.
do you have any images of his tattoos? they have potential to be the most amazing tattoos i have ever seen!
do you have any images of his tattoos? they have potential to be the most amazing tattoos i have ever seen!
It’s my opinion that nobody here has the right to determine whether this or any other procedure is “right” or “wrong”. If two (or three, in this case) consenting adults take part in an extreme medical procedure who are we to stop them? If I have the right to pay a doctor to cut open my chest and insert huge implants, why can’t I pay a cutter to do the same? Of cut out a chunk of skin, or cut off my genitals? For that matter, why can’t I pay some random guy on the street to stab me in the gut? It’s my body; I can and will do what I will with it. The fact that what the other guy does to me may or may not be legal is an entirely separate issue, but one that’s based on the first.
I also don’t feel that cutters are under any ethical obligation to clients, except when it comes to minors, people who are obviously incapable of making safe choices, and the obvious responsibility to see that the procedure is done in the safest and best manner they can do, and that the client recieves proper care after the procedure so as to maximise the potential for proper healing.
It’s my opinion that nobody here has the right to determine whether this or any other procedure is “right” or “wrong”. If two (or three, in this case) consenting adults take part in an extreme medical procedure who are we to stop them? If I have the right to pay a doctor to cut open my chest and insert huge implants, why can’t I pay a cutter to do the same? Of cut out a chunk of skin, or cut off my genitals? For that matter, why can’t I pay some random guy on the street to stab me in the gut? It’s my body; I can and will do what I will with it. The fact that what the other guy does to me may or may not be legal is an entirely separate issue, but one that’s based on the first.
I also don’t feel that cutters are under any ethical obligation to clients, except when it comes to minors, people who are obviously incapable of making safe choices, and the obvious responsibility to see that the procedure is done in the safest and best manner they can do, and that the client recieves proper care after the procedure so as to maximise the potential for proper healing.
Yes it was Howie at the Swiss mod meeting in June 2006, and the client was iam:bastien. But before everyone starts bad talk about howie: he refused to do a procedure on me (magnetic finger implant) which Steve Haworth, Emilio Gonzalez and about 5 other mod artists told me personally that they would do it. And told me nothing about possible risks. Some months later, Shannons article proved him right.
I too think that bastien should tell his story. We don’t know if he pushed the mod artist into doing it, we don’t know if his body has a increased tendency to keloid.
Thanks sammpa for explaining the thing about the deepness of the cuts.
Yes it was Howie at the Swiss mod meeting in June 2006, and the client was iam:bastien. But before everyone starts bad talk about howie: he refused to do a procedure on me (magnetic finger implant) which Steve Haworth, Emilio Gonzalez and about 5 other mod artists told me personally that they would do it. And told me nothing about possible risks. Some months later, Shannons article proved him right.
I too think that bastien should tell his story. We don’t know if he pushed the mod artist into doing it, we don’t know if his body has a increased tendency to keloid.
Thanks sammpa for explaining the thing about the deepness of the cuts.
This is one of the more interesting threads we have seen on here in a long time.
Only problem? My finger gets tired scrolling allll the waaaay down to the latest post.
🙂
This is one of the more interesting threads we have seen on here in a long time.
Only problem? My finger gets tired scrolling allll the waaaay down to the latest post.
🙂
dude, this had 129 posts, that HAS to be a record!
dude, this had 129 posts, that HAS to be a record!
nope, the claw hand wolverien freak boy post has 400 some post’s. no one from fark has see this yet. lol.
nope, the claw hand wolverien freak boy post has 400 some post’s. no one from fark has see this yet. lol.
At least was in the best of hands for this.
At least was in the best of hands for this.
Jordan:
I’m sure from your statement that the “authorities” could easily wrangle up some obscure documents of tongue piercing infections causing death, statistics on hep c linked to tattooing etc etc etc… where do you think the line drawn could be? you’d be opening up a very large hole that everything worked so hard to achieve could easily be sucked into.
Jordan:
I’m sure from your statement that the “authorities” could easily wrangle up some obscure documents of tongue piercing infections causing death, statistics on hep c linked to tattooing etc etc etc… where do you think the line drawn could be? you’d be opening up a very large hole that everything worked so hard to achieve could easily be sucked into.
I don’t understand the arguement. The client has every right to get a cutting. I’m sure he knew the risks involved. The whole purpose is for the SCARRING…it just so happens that it’s a risk he took and unfortunately it did turn for the worse. However, the practictioners who removed the keloid had every right to do it. I’m sure going into the initial scarification he knew risks, as i’m sure he knew there is a risk when getting the keloids removed. People are looking into this way too much. People will perform procedures their own ways, it’s up to the client whether or not they agree with and want to go under the procedure.
I don’t understand the arguement. The client has every right to get a cutting. I’m sure he knew the risks involved. The whole purpose is for the SCARRING…it just so happens that it’s a risk he took and unfortunately it did turn for the worse. However, the practictioners who removed the keloid had every right to do it. I’m sure going into the initial scarification he knew risks, as i’m sure he knew there is a risk when getting the keloids removed. People are looking into this way too much. People will perform procedures their own ways, it’s up to the client whether or not they agree with and want to go under the procedure.
Wow. For someone like myself who has bigger scars due to actual surgical procedures (some ten feet or so) from heart and various other incidences, I can tell you how horrifying you all are to sit there and actually buy into this shit that these fucking fools think they are “artists” because they hack into people’s skin and make pretty designs.
I’m all for the do what you want with your own body mindset, believe me. But the fact that there are less than educated hyped-up younger folk reading this shit and thinking, wow, man, I could totally do that, it’s so cool, makes it completely wrong to be complicit with-not only for putting it up, but for advertising these faux skills of a bunch of fucking hackers.
Wouldn’t it be a totally novel idea to maybe even get a basic nursing degree? Wouldn’t it be amazing if these guys actually got a fucking education as to what they were doing…not just metaphorically, but physically to the victims that pay them? This is not like 9th grade where kids pierced their ears with burnt tip safety pins. This is the real deal and all of you fucking tools who buy into this shit as appropriate are asking for it…either through staph or whatever infections might claim your life. Arguing over blade size and sterilization wouldn’t be necessary if you all actually trusted these goons knew what they were doing.
I can’t wait for these guys to end up in jail. It’s an imminent danger, and maybe someone has to actually die before the wheels are set in motion.
But I ask you, would you really trust a guy whose grammar and basic spelling skills are less than someone who is 14 to cut into your skin and do some of the most obviously unprofessional sutures I have ever seen? I wouldn’t trust someone who would actually type a statement like this out: [(Procedure itself was pretty easy altought that it needs about 60 stitches. And yes we used sterile cloves and sterile everything and about scalpel bladesâ¦(btw ausmoz, can u came up with ur real name, please?) we used(me nr. 15 as usually and lukas nr.11) and what was wrong with blades? u need two different type of blade for it.]
Not to pop the bubbles of all of you kids who think you need to morph into other things besides the human beings that you all happen to be…but honestly, guys, THINK about what you are doing. I can’t tell you how often it is that people with less than stellar egos, people who might not have the self-confidence that they might perceive the average person to have, do these things to their body and then sit and whine and complain that “everyone makes fun of me…how can they judge me”. This is the mirror complaint that they had BEFORE they underwent these âmodificationsâ?, yet now actually have the ammunition to validate it.
You might try something actually useful, like spending your hard-earned cash on some fucking therapy before you go buying into this “idea” that cutting yourself up is going to make it all better.
Wow. For someone like myself who has bigger scars due to actual surgical procedures (some ten feet or so) from heart and various other incidences, I can tell you how horrifying you all are to sit there and actually buy into this shit that these fucking fools think they are “artists” because they hack into people’s skin and make pretty designs.
I’m all for the do what you want with your own body mindset, believe me. But the fact that there are less than educated hyped-up younger folk reading this shit and thinking, wow, man, I could totally do that, it’s so cool, makes it completely wrong to be complicit with-not only for putting it up, but for advertising these faux skills of a bunch of fucking hackers.
Wouldn’t it be a totally novel idea to maybe even get a basic nursing degree? Wouldn’t it be amazing if these guys actually got a fucking education as to what they were doing…not just metaphorically, but physically to the victims that pay them? This is not like 9th grade where kids pierced their ears with burnt tip safety pins. This is the real deal and all of you fucking tools who buy into this shit as appropriate are asking for it…either through staph or whatever infections might claim your life. Arguing over blade size and sterilization wouldn’t be necessary if you all actually trusted these goons knew what they were doing.
I can’t wait for these guys to end up in jail. It’s an imminent danger, and maybe someone has to actually die before the wheels are set in motion.
But I ask you, would you really trust a guy whose grammar and basic spelling skills are less than someone who is 14 to cut into your skin and do some of the most obviously unprofessional sutures I have ever seen? I wouldn’t trust someone who would actually type a statement like this out: [(Procedure itself was pretty easy altought that it needs about 60 stitches. And yes we used sterile cloves and sterile everything and about scalpel bladesâ¦(btw ausmoz, can u came up with ur real name, please?) we used(me nr. 15 as usually and lukas nr.11) and what was wrong with blades? u need two different type of blade for it.]
Not to pop the bubbles of all of you kids who think you need to morph into other things besides the human beings that you all happen to be…but honestly, guys, THINK about what you are doing. I can’t tell you how often it is that people with less than stellar egos, people who might not have the self-confidence that they might perceive the average person to have, do these things to their body and then sit and whine and complain that “everyone makes fun of me…how can they judge me”. This is the mirror complaint that they had BEFORE they underwent these âmodificationsâ?, yet now actually have the ammunition to validate it.
You might try something actually useful, like spending your hard-earned cash on some fucking therapy before you go buying into this “idea” that cutting yourself up is going to make it all better.
Looking at the original skin removal, with exception of the cutting in the middle, I wouldn’t have guessed that the side ones would keloid like they did.
I’m glad this guy got relief. I see this procedure the same as typical skin removal work. But this is a cautionary tale. It just hilights the risks of scarification that people should be aware of in the first place. Scarring can be unpredictable, you really have to know your own body, and even though people can heal differently it’s still a good idea to research the artist and look at before and after shots.
Looking at the original skin removal, with exception of the cutting in the middle, I wouldn’t have guessed that the side ones would keloid like they did.
I’m glad this guy got relief. I see this procedure the same as typical skin removal work. But this is a cautionary tale. It just hilights the risks of scarification that people should be aware of in the first place. Scarring can be unpredictable, you really have to know your own body, and even though people can heal differently it’s still a good idea to research the artist and look at before and after shots.
Regarding post #95
The sutures placed are called mattress sutures and are commonly placed to help relieve tension on a primary suture line (Just some FYI for Sampaa). Note previous post about pattern. However, other tension relieving techniques may have been helpful, as it did still seem kind of tense.
In the future, rings must be removed if you are even going to begin to use aseptic technique. Consider investing in a gown and drapes.
Regarding healing by secondary intention:
With a primary surgical site that is not grossly contaminated, there is no reason (for a SURGEON) to not perform primary closure. Delayed primary closure and closure by secondary intention should only be used in the case of contaminated or infected wounds or if a wound cannot be closed with out a skin graft without being under undue tension.
It was healing by secondary intention, which is what scarification is all about that caused this problem in the first place.
Regarding skin removal in general:
I just don’t believe it should be done AT ALL (I know I am going to be flamed but don’t care). Skin is a precious resource. The way it heals cannot be compatible with most peoples artistic vision. I have posted previously about my concerns with contracture and loss of mobility and I am sad that it was seen out.
So many more things to say, but too tired to fight. It is not going to change anyone’s mind anyway.
Regarding post #95
The sutures placed are called mattress sutures and are commonly placed to help relieve tension on a primary suture line (Just some FYI for Sampaa). Note previous post about pattern. However, other tension relieving techniques may have been helpful, as it did still seem kind of tense.
In the future, rings must be removed if you are even going to begin to use aseptic technique. Consider investing in a gown and drapes.
Regarding healing by secondary intention:
With a primary surgical site that is not grossly contaminated, there is no reason (for a SURGEON) to not perform primary closure. Delayed primary closure and closure by secondary intention should only be used in the case of contaminated or infected wounds or if a wound cannot be closed with out a skin graft without being under undue tension.
It was healing by secondary intention, which is what scarification is all about that caused this problem in the first place.
Regarding skin removal in general:
I just don’t believe it should be done AT ALL (I know I am going to be flamed but don’t care). Skin is a precious resource. The way it heals cannot be compatible with most peoples artistic vision. I have posted previously about my concerns with contracture and loss of mobility and I am sad that it was seen out.
So many more things to say, but too tired to fight. It is not going to change anyone’s mind anyway.
this is why scarring is retarded. if you want a scar that badly just get cancer or something like the rest of us instead of trying to be “badass” , its pathetic.
this is why scarring is retarded. if you want a scar that badly just get cancer or something like the rest of us instead of trying to be “badass” , its pathetic.
sweet jesus! those go all the way to the fatty tissue,eep!
i’m between being really jealous and being really thankful because none of my scars are tht bad.
sweet jesus! those go all the way to the fatty tissue,eep!
i’m between being really jealous and being really thankful because none of my scars are tht bad.
shannon: you just posted a link to the (i believe) original cuts done to the guy’s torso. that’s some mighty intense scarring, be it one month later, or a year. i’m rather curious now if he’s had a similar reaction to any other cuts, or if he’s had any done before.
i’m glad things are going in the right direction for him now.
shannon: you just posted a link to the (i believe) original cuts done to the guy’s torso. that’s some mighty intense scarring, be it one month later, or a year. i’m rather curious now if he’s had a similar reaction to any other cuts, or if he’s had any done before.
i’m glad things are going in the right direction for him now.
Wow…one comment that always gets on my tits is when people say, as a means to justify their behavior “They knew what they were getting into when they got the cutting.
Guess what folks….there’s not a person here who can say with certainty, that they are aware of what they are getting into when they get a scarification. If this individual did then he sure as hell wouldn’t have gone through with it, would he?
People…this is NOT a dainty world. There are a ton of pics on here where the scarring looks horrible. How many of these people who get this done actually ‘test’ their bodies to see what might happen, since they have no basis for comparisson and everyone scars differently?
Still, it certainly makes me never want to get anything intentionally scarred. no one to tell for sure WHAT might happen…even if the results are good.
Wow…one comment that always gets on my tits is when people say, as a means to justify their behavior “They knew what they were getting into when they got the cutting.
Guess what folks….there’s not a person here who can say with certainty, that they are aware of what they are getting into when they get a scarification. If this individual did then he sure as hell wouldn’t have gone through with it, would he?
People…this is NOT a dainty world. There are a ton of pics on here where the scarring looks horrible. How many of these people who get this done actually ‘test’ their bodies to see what might happen, since they have no basis for comparisson and everyone scars differently?
Still, it certainly makes me never want to get anything intentionally scarred. no one to tell for sure WHAT might happen…even if the results are good.
Hmmmmmm speakin of Howie being professional. Is this the place to bring up his broken beer bottle scarification piece. Or how about the time all the girl wanted was a heart scar and he decided to do that plus scar her for life by putting an H in the center to leave his mark. Just because she could not see what he was cuttin on her at the time due to the area? hmmmmmmm Howie any comments
Hmmmmmm speakin of Howie being professional. Is this the place to bring up his broken beer bottle scarification piece. Or how about the time all the girl wanted was a heart scar and he decided to do that plus scar her for life by putting an H in the center to leave his mark. Just because she could not see what he was cuttin on her at the time due to the area? hmmmmmmm Howie any comments
From my standpoint, as someone with a massive (perhaps the largest save for Corinna?) skin removal — done by Lukas Zpira no less — as well as probably more scarification than anyone else, I’d have to back up the person (iam:bastien) with his choice to have this done.
Sure, neither Samppa nor Lukas have any sort of medical degree (I’m assuming). And sure, it doesn’t seem to have been performed in the most sterile of environments. And sure, he most certainly could have died as a direct result of having such a large wound. Then again, so could I. Here’s some video (also available on Google Video) http://modblog.bmezine.com/2005/12/05/high-res-scarification-video/
The thing is, what about people who take unknown drugs from “friends”? There’s most certainly a very real element there of death. I’m not talking about kids, I’m talking about adults who elect to imbibe chemicals from a total stranger, the origins of which are usually highly suspect.
I feel that the above scenario is not too different from this keloid removal, although it would probably be viewed in a different light. That’s just my two cents on the “ethical” arguments given thus far.
In regards to why such a large, handicapping keloid developed I’m not surprised at all. The picture Shannon posted SEEMS to be somewhat deep, I agree, although I’d need more angles/closeups, and even then I’m no expert. But more importantly, the area in which he was scarred is the clue. Areas where the skin has more movement will scar heavier than those areas whose movement is little. Have you ever seen a keloid on someone’s skull? I haven’t!
His ribs and stomach area especially have massive movement. Look what happens to your stomach when you sit down. I know on my torso my stomach area scarred much more than, say, my chest. Here’s a pic:
http://modblog.bmezine.com/2006/08/22/fineline-scarification/
Anyways, I don’t think that the industry is becoming more ballsy in its approach; on the contrary, I think the recent professionalism has made practicioners more practical when it comes to more “extreme” mods. People have been bisecting their penises forever, it’s only nowadays that there’s people to go to who are even remotely sterile.
It’s too late now, bed time for me. Sorry if none of this made much sense.
From my standpoint, as someone with a massive (perhaps the largest save for Corinna?) skin removal — done by Lukas Zpira no less — as well as probably more scarification than anyone else, I’d have to back up the person (iam:bastien) with his choice to have this done.
Sure, neither Samppa nor Lukas have any sort of medical degree (I’m assuming). And sure, it doesn’t seem to have been performed in the most sterile of environments. And sure, he most certainly could have died as a direct result of having such a large wound. Then again, so could I. Here’s some video (also available on Google Video) http://modblog.bmezine.com/2005/12/05/high-res-scarification-video/
The thing is, what about people who take unknown drugs from “friends”? There’s most certainly a very real element there of death. I’m not talking about kids, I’m talking about adults who elect to imbibe chemicals from a total stranger, the origins of which are usually highly suspect.
I feel that the above scenario is not too different from this keloid removal, although it would probably be viewed in a different light. That’s just my two cents on the “ethical” arguments given thus far.
In regards to why such a large, handicapping keloid developed I’m not surprised at all. The picture Shannon posted SEEMS to be somewhat deep, I agree, although I’d need more angles/closeups, and even then I’m no expert. But more importantly, the area in which he was scarred is the clue. Areas where the skin has more movement will scar heavier than those areas whose movement is little. Have you ever seen a keloid on someone’s skull? I haven’t!
His ribs and stomach area especially have massive movement. Look what happens to your stomach when you sit down. I know on my torso my stomach area scarred much more than, say, my chest. Here’s a pic:
http://modblog.bmezine.com/2006/08/22/fineline-scarification/
Anyways, I don’t think that the industry is becoming more ballsy in its approach; on the contrary, I think the recent professionalism has made practicioners more practical when it comes to more “extreme” mods. People have been bisecting their penises forever, it’s only nowadays that there’s people to go to who are even remotely sterile.
It’s too late now, bed time for me. Sorry if none of this made much sense.
That’s quite immense how it keloided up. They were huge.
That’s quite immense how it keloided up. They were huge.
re: Comment 134:
“But I ask you, would you really trust a guy whose grammar and basic spelling skills are less than someone who is 14 to cut into your skin”
Deanna – could you re-post what you had to say in fluent Finnish with full grammar and correct spelling please?
re: Comment 134:
“But I ask you, would you really trust a guy whose grammar and basic spelling skills are less than someone who is 14 to cut into your skin”
Deanna – could you re-post what you had to say in fluent Finnish with full grammar and correct spelling please?
I would just like to state that us saying he should’ve gone to a doctor is just about the same as a mother telling her 30-year-old son not to get another piercing. Granted, the procedure and risks are on quite different levels, but if the person is of a secure state of mind and capable of making their own decisions, who are we to judge? And if they are not capable of making their own decisions, should they be commited to a hospital? Then who draws the line?
I personally think that two people should well be allowed to kill and eat each other for all I care as long as a) they’re not harming anybody else and b) they have a written contract in case something happens so the consent can be proven.
But I’m very much against BB anyway, and that’s just my opinion. I’m sure the politicians will know my rights better than I do.
I would just like to state that us saying he should’ve gone to a doctor is just about the same as a mother telling her 30-year-old son not to get another piercing. Granted, the procedure and risks are on quite different levels, but if the person is of a secure state of mind and capable of making their own decisions, who are we to judge? And if they are not capable of making their own decisions, should they be commited to a hospital? Then who draws the line?
I personally think that two people should well be allowed to kill and eat each other for all I care as long as a) they’re not harming anybody else and b) they have a written contract in case something happens so the consent can be proven.
But I’m very much against BB anyway, and that’s just my opinion. I’m sure the politicians will know my rights better than I do.
Deanna (Comment 134) – Samppa is Finnish, and English is not his first language which would explain his imperfect spelling and grammar. HOWEVER I have never quite been able to connect the issue of spelling with the issue of being a good practitioner. That seemed like an irrelevant attack.
The main thing that I’ve been thinking about as I read the posts is how many modification procedures which are becoming more and more common are potentially as dangerous as the keloid removal procedure.
Whether this means that we (as the modified/modifying community) should step back and re-define what is ‘safe’ or acceptable, or we should step back and up the sterility, or step back and consider other options all together, I do not know.
This post has certainly made me step back (and I think many of you stepped with me…) and re-think the risk levels of my planned modifications.
Deanna (Comment 134) – Samppa is Finnish, and English is not his first language which would explain his imperfect spelling and grammar. HOWEVER I have never quite been able to connect the issue of spelling with the issue of being a good practitioner. That seemed like an irrelevant attack.
The main thing that I’ve been thinking about as I read the posts is how many modification procedures which are becoming more and more common are potentially as dangerous as the keloid removal procedure.
Whether this means that we (as the modified/modifying community) should step back and re-define what is ‘safe’ or acceptable, or we should step back and up the sterility, or step back and consider other options all together, I do not know.
This post has certainly made me step back (and I think many of you stepped with me…) and re-think the risk levels of my planned modifications.
Haha… Jesus! Snap!
Haha… Jesus! Snap!
time to say something …
ok , wen bastien came to me asking to remove hes cheloides, I didnt say “yes” … just “maybe, but it s going to be more dificult than you imagine… let me think about”. after a while, we both agree that another advice was necessary. samppa came to us. THE 3 OF US talked about the procedure and we finaly decide to perform it .
let me explain you something jordan . this wasnt our first procedure … I dont bulshit you talling like some other that I’ve been in medical school for years , but I start doing body modification 10 years ago, enouth to learn some “basics”, while you were still playing with your ungrow penis, try to guess is purpose.
so we did the procedure, in a studio simalar at other studio that people use to do subincision and other pretty hard procedure . everithing we used for the procedure was sterile, and even if the procedure was a bit dificult for everibody , everithing goes right . we did one side only . we decide to wait a couple of days , see how things are going before to do the other side . everithing goes right , so we decide to remove the second cheloide 2 days later . in the same spot and again all we use was completly sterile . like for the first part, a 3 person help us during the procedure.
after that, we decide to put bastien under antibiotics for 10 days, and to make him wear a medical corset to avoid all execives tensions .
bastien stay with us during a couple of days after the procedure , almost a week, and we check everiday if everithing was corect . and beleve it or not, we didnt got any other problemes . no execive bleeding, no infections …
bastien will come in this forum to tel you hes point of view, and we will keep you updated .
but man , stop coming to this page to colport fucking gossip ! the point her is not to kill anybodys reputation …
thats always drive me crazy wen I read coment like :
“but Lukas is known by other artists around the world for having incredibly⦠ummâ¦.. ârelaxedâ? views toward cleanliness, disinfection, and sterility. I have worked on him, and seen him work up close, and I can tell you that Iâve seen some frightening things.”
who are you asshole to say bulshit like this about me ? thats just gossip. and pretend that you worked on me on the top of that !
the only people who worked on me are : steve, howie, samppa (and tom for a scalpeled neeples that I didnt keep). your just a pretentious liar.
I dont have anything to prove about my work . what I did during the past and still doing now talk for me .
so if somebody got something to say about the procedure and the legal issue, he can tel it. but if you just have to talk shit about anybody, go back play with your playstation .
so, yes I agree this procedure was legaly border line . but what about subincision, transcrotal, nipple removal, implants etc ….
I call all theise procedures “body hacking” . is nothing legal with hacking . so what ?! why shall we respect some laws made by people who still beleve that man should be like god made them ? why should we respect laws made by people who just want to take the control of our destiny ? theise laws will soon make illegal facial modification to beter control us via biometric system . are you going to respect that ?! who is going to make the regulation about body mods ? george buch governement ?! sorry Im laffing . are americans going to send some troops to arrest bodmods artist in other country ?! come on baby , think a bit by yourself and stop whatching cnn , ok ?
time to say something …
ok , wen bastien came to me asking to remove hes cheloides, I didnt say “yes” … just “maybe, but it s going to be more dificult than you imagine… let me think about”. after a while, we both agree that another advice was necessary. samppa came to us. THE 3 OF US talked about the procedure and we finaly decide to perform it .
let me explain you something jordan . this wasnt our first procedure … I dont bulshit you talling like some other that I’ve been in medical school for years , but I start doing body modification 10 years ago, enouth to learn some “basics”, while you were still playing with your ungrow penis, try to guess is purpose.
so we did the procedure, in a studio simalar at other studio that people use to do subincision and other pretty hard procedure . everithing we used for the procedure was sterile, and even if the procedure was a bit dificult for everibody , everithing goes right . we did one side only . we decide to wait a couple of days , see how things are going before to do the other side . everithing goes right , so we decide to remove the second cheloide 2 days later . in the same spot and again all we use was completly sterile . like for the first part, a 3 person help us during the procedure.
after that, we decide to put bastien under antibiotics for 10 days, and to make him wear a medical corset to avoid all execives tensions .
bastien stay with us during a couple of days after the procedure , almost a week, and we check everiday if everithing was corect . and beleve it or not, we didnt got any other problemes . no execive bleeding, no infections …
bastien will come in this forum to tel you hes point of view, and we will keep you updated .
but man , stop coming to this page to colport fucking gossip ! the point her is not to kill anybodys reputation …
thats always drive me crazy wen I read coment like :
“but Lukas is known by other artists around the world for having incredibly⦠ummâ¦.. ârelaxedâ? views toward cleanliness, disinfection, and sterility. I have worked on him, and seen him work up close, and I can tell you that Iâve seen some frightening things.”
who are you asshole to say bulshit like this about me ? thats just gossip. and pretend that you worked on me on the top of that !
the only people who worked on me are : steve, howie, samppa (and tom for a scalpeled neeples that I didnt keep). your just a pretentious liar.
I dont have anything to prove about my work . what I did during the past and still doing now talk for me .
so if somebody got something to say about the procedure and the legal issue, he can tel it. but if you just have to talk shit about anybody, go back play with your playstation .
so, yes I agree this procedure was legaly border line . but what about subincision, transcrotal, nipple removal, implants etc ….
I call all theise procedures “body hacking” . is nothing legal with hacking . so what ?! why shall we respect some laws made by people who still beleve that man should be like god made them ? why should we respect laws made by people who just want to take the control of our destiny ? theise laws will soon make illegal facial modification to beter control us via biometric system . are you going to respect that ?! who is going to make the regulation about body mods ? george buch governement ?! sorry Im laffing . are americans going to send some troops to arrest bodmods artist in other country ?! come on baby , think a bit by yourself and stop whatching cnn , ok ?
re:comment 134 again:
“I’m all for the do what you want with your own body mindset, believe me. But the fact that there are less than educated hyped-up younger folk reading this shit and thinking, wow, man, I could totally do that, it’s so cool, makes it completely wrong to be complicit with-not only for putting it up, but for advertising these faux skills of a bunch of fucking hackers.”
Deanna – apart from all the emotive crap you wrote (something to do with empathising over having involuntary scars from surgical procedures “some 10 feet or so” from your heart), what are you suggesting here? Censoring this so that “younger folk” don’t see this?
I get the feeling somewhere down the line that you missed the point: this post is about keloid *removal* (hence the deeper cutting) from original scarification gone wrong, not “this is cool shit to do to your own body”. There is a valuable lesson to be learnt here and censorship is besides the point.
Two questions though: Where is yttrx on this issue? what does howie have to say for this?
re:comment 134 again:
“I’m all for the do what you want with your own body mindset, believe me. But the fact that there are less than educated hyped-up younger folk reading this shit and thinking, wow, man, I could totally do that, it’s so cool, makes it completely wrong to be complicit with-not only for putting it up, but for advertising these faux skills of a bunch of fucking hackers.”
Deanna – apart from all the emotive crap you wrote (something to do with empathising over having involuntary scars from surgical procedures “some 10 feet or so” from your heart), what are you suggesting here? Censoring this so that “younger folk” don’t see this?
I get the feeling somewhere down the line that you missed the point: this post is about keloid *removal* (hence the deeper cutting) from original scarification gone wrong, not “this is cool shit to do to your own body”. There is a valuable lesson to be learnt here and censorship is besides the point.
Two questions though: Where is yttrx on this issue? what does howie have to say for this?
the keloids are not the result of a bad artist… they are the result of the body producing excessive scar tissue… had nothing to do with the artist… and the center scar is not on the sternum, it is on the abdomen… hopefully, he won’t scar up as badly this time, but the potential for more keloids is there, because since he had them once, he is prone to have them again… 😎
the keloids are not the result of a bad artist… they are the result of the body producing excessive scar tissue… had nothing to do with the artist… and the center scar is not on the sternum, it is on the abdomen… hopefully, he won’t scar up as badly this time, but the potential for more keloids is there, because since he had them once, he is prone to have them again… 😎
First, I wanted to thank Lukas and Samppa for adding to this forum.
Second, I wanted to say that I thought this quote (paraphrased from Lukas) was great: “Nothing is legal with body hacking — so what! Why should we respect laws made by people who still believe that man should be like god made him? Why should we respect laws made by people who just want to take the control of our destiny?”
First, I wanted to thank Lukas and Samppa for adding to this forum.
Second, I wanted to say that I thought this quote (paraphrased from Lukas) was great: “Nothing is legal with body hacking — so what! Why should we respect laws made by people who still believe that man should be like god made him? Why should we respect laws made by people who just want to take the control of our destiny?”
Micehell – I am fairly certain that the top part of the scar is over the lower part of the sternum. Obviously I am aware the entire thing is not. I think we all know where the sternum starts and ends.
Micehell – I am fairly certain that the top part of the scar is over the lower part of the sternum. Obviously I am aware the entire thing is not. I think we all know where the sternum starts and ends.
deanna, scarification is not what people have done to ‘make things all better’. that is called ‘self mutilation’, and it is a very big difference than people who choose to alter their bodies. self-cutters do it for relief of psychological pain. i’m sure that every person in this forum who has undergone scarification, branding, tattooing, piercing will agree that they did not do it for psychological pain relief.
my apologies if my grammar and spelling are not to your level either. like lukas and samppa, english ain’t my first language either.
deanna, scarification is not what people have done to ‘make things all better’. that is called ‘self mutilation’, and it is a very big difference than people who choose to alter their bodies. self-cutters do it for relief of psychological pain. i’m sure that every person in this forum who has undergone scarification, branding, tattooing, piercing will agree that they did not do it for psychological pain relief.
my apologies if my grammar and spelling are not to your level either. like lukas and samppa, english ain’t my first language either.
Well with just moments from catching a taxi to head to Toronto and get more of my arm scarification sleeve completed…This has certainly wasted much precious time I could have utilized, in getting to Toronto earlier. haha
We can all argue till the cows come home about this procedure, because we are on the outside of the looking glass…Based on the quicksnap photographs that someone took documenting the procedure. So you can’t tell anything from the pictures, other than what is vaguely going on.
Sammpa gave us a run down of what went on…I’m inclined to believe Sammpa, why lie publically about this stuff? As it’d only severely tarnish his reputation as a bod mod artist. However before Sammpa posted, all we had to go by was nothing…Since many of the people posting, save for a few, have little to know understanding/knowledge of any of this topic.
Judge not least you’ve walked a mile in the shoes ALL individuals in questions.
FYI: for anyone who supports Sammpa and Lukas with the phrase: “They are GREAT BOD MOD ARTISTS!”
If I remember, not long ago on Shannon’s page this was discussed already…But if you forget…SOME OF “THE WORLDS GREATEST BOD MOD ARTISTS” HAVE SERIOUSLY INJURED THEIR CLIENTS TOO!!!!
And we’re talking LIFE THREATENING too, close to death…Not leaving them scarred or nerve damage…
I know and admire both Sammpa AND Lukas, so I will never argue specifically against them…However personally, if it was me, I would have sought out proper medical attention…I would have FOUND a doctor who would do the procedure…I would have MADE SURE they used proper aseptic technique with everything sterilized and prepped properly.
As for putting people into mental wards, that’s purely subjective and based entirely on WHERE you specifically live. In small backwater towns, possibly…But in HUGE mega cities such as: Toronto, NYC, London,etc you will NOT be subjected to such ignorance…At least nowadays.
I remember one day after BMEFest I had a friend seek out medical help for anti-biotics after a procedure they had done…They saw the doctor, showed them the mod and the doctor was very open an asked MANY questions and acted like: “Oh ok well lets treat the problem”
Also to the person who wrote that perhaps the individual in question TALKED THE ARTIST INTO DOING IT, AGAINST THE ARTISTS WILL
I call utter and complete bullshit! As a piercer if I have clients come in that I feel are not anatomically adequate to have a navel piercing, I TELL THEM…If they try to talk me into it, I REFUSE!
Artists should not give in to the clients demands. If the client wanted Howie to cut deeper than what is desired…Howie should have flat out told the client: “NO!”
Ethics and Morals play a HUGE part of what artists do. Coupled with our skills that’s ALL WE HAVE. If we feel doing something to someone might be dangerous, WE SHOULD LISTEN TO OUR LIL VOICES IN OUR HEADS AND REFUSE!
Now people will come back an say: “yeah but if one refused, he’d just search until he’d find one that would”
But again that falls under ethics…Hell I’m sure I could find someone to locate a dead hooker and have a horse fuck it while a kid strokes the horses ballsack…It’ll take some time, but I’m POSITIVE I could…Doesn’t mean I SHOULD.
Clients are sometimes ignorant and know NOTHING about modifications, other than that they want them.
Artists are often trying to maintain their artist cred and do the next craziest mod and stay “on top” and reveared by all as being: “THE ONE”
Clients should investigate/research the risks…Artists should TELL the risks….Sometimes things just SHOULDN’T be done.
Anyways I’m glad Sammpa and Lukas managed to help him and he’s doing much better…In the grand scheme of things now, that’s all that really matters.
We can argue and debate this shit till the cows come home. It will sadly NEVER end.
But WILL end is my rambling on this topic as I’ve spent almost an hour rambling, when I should be heading to Toronto to get my inner bicep cut.
EXPECT PICTURES SHANNON!!!!! Unless you wanna come by an say hi hahaha!
We’re gonna carve us a Warren Turkey!
Well with just moments from catching a taxi to head to Toronto and get more of my arm scarification sleeve completed…This has certainly wasted much precious time I could have utilized, in getting to Toronto earlier. haha
We can all argue till the cows come home about this procedure, because we are on the outside of the looking glass…Based on the quicksnap photographs that someone took documenting the procedure. So you can’t tell anything from the pictures, other than what is vaguely going on.
Sammpa gave us a run down of what went on…I’m inclined to believe Sammpa, why lie publically about this stuff? As it’d only severely tarnish his reputation as a bod mod artist. However before Sammpa posted, all we had to go by was nothing…Since many of the people posting, save for a few, have little to know understanding/knowledge of any of this topic.
Judge not least you’ve walked a mile in the shoes ALL individuals in questions.
FYI: for anyone who supports Sammpa and Lukas with the phrase: “They are GREAT BOD MOD ARTISTS!”
If I remember, not long ago on Shannon’s page this was discussed already…But if you forget…SOME OF “THE WORLDS GREATEST BOD MOD ARTISTS” HAVE SERIOUSLY INJURED THEIR CLIENTS TOO!!!!
And we’re talking LIFE THREATENING too, close to death…Not leaving them scarred or nerve damage…
I know and admire both Sammpa AND Lukas, so I will never argue specifically against them…However personally, if it was me, I would have sought out proper medical attention…I would have FOUND a doctor who would do the procedure…I would have MADE SURE they used proper aseptic technique with everything sterilized and prepped properly.
As for putting people into mental wards, that’s purely subjective and based entirely on WHERE you specifically live. In small backwater towns, possibly…But in HUGE mega cities such as: Toronto, NYC, London,etc you will NOT be subjected to such ignorance…At least nowadays.
I remember one day after BMEFest I had a friend seek out medical help for anti-biotics after a procedure they had done…They saw the doctor, showed them the mod and the doctor was very open an asked MANY questions and acted like: “Oh ok well lets treat the problem”
Also to the person who wrote that perhaps the individual in question TALKED THE ARTIST INTO DOING IT, AGAINST THE ARTISTS WILL
I call utter and complete bullshit! As a piercer if I have clients come in that I feel are not anatomically adequate to have a navel piercing, I TELL THEM…If they try to talk me into it, I REFUSE!
Artists should not give in to the clients demands. If the client wanted Howie to cut deeper than what is desired…Howie should have flat out told the client: “NO!”
Ethics and Morals play a HUGE part of what artists do. Coupled with our skills that’s ALL WE HAVE. If we feel doing something to someone might be dangerous, WE SHOULD LISTEN TO OUR LIL VOICES IN OUR HEADS AND REFUSE!
Now people will come back an say: “yeah but if one refused, he’d just search until he’d find one that would”
But again that falls under ethics…Hell I’m sure I could find someone to locate a dead hooker and have a horse fuck it while a kid strokes the horses ballsack…It’ll take some time, but I’m POSITIVE I could…Doesn’t mean I SHOULD.
Clients are sometimes ignorant and know NOTHING about modifications, other than that they want them.
Artists are often trying to maintain their artist cred and do the next craziest mod and stay “on top” and reveared by all as being: “THE ONE”
Clients should investigate/research the risks…Artists should TELL the risks….Sometimes things just SHOULDN’T be done.
Anyways I’m glad Sammpa and Lukas managed to help him and he’s doing much better…In the grand scheme of things now, that’s all that really matters.
We can argue and debate this shit till the cows come home. It will sadly NEVER end.
But WILL end is my rambling on this topic as I’ve spent almost an hour rambling, when I should be heading to Toronto to get my inner bicep cut.
EXPECT PICTURES SHANNON!!!!! Unless you wanna come by an say hi hahaha!
We’re gonna carve us a Warren Turkey!
Look, the fact of the matter is, with Lukas and Samppa doing this procedure, it’s shown that there is no ceiling to what body modification “artists” think they’re capable of. And considering the danger that they already put clients in with ostensibly less complex procedures, that is a very scary thought.
I know Lukas was mentioning lots of stuff about government subjugation and blah blah blah (not to mention my infant penis, which seemed unnecessary, but hey — c’est la vie!), but come on. Why do people in this industry think they’re special? You need a license to work in a fucking nail salon — how does it make any sense that ANYBODY can pick up a scalpel and start cutting people?
It doesn’t. It makes NO sense. It’s getting to the point where, as a friend of mine said last night, it’s time to throw the baby out with the bathwater. “Artists” have been exploiting a system that they think doesn’t know they exist, except there’s a problem: There is NO way that authorities aren’t aware of this. And the people who get busted will not be victims of some government conspiracy to make sure we don’t tattoo our fucking faces: They will be victims of their own idiotic actions and their choice to not go through the proper channels to ensure that what they were doing was at least semi-legal.
The industry, in its current form, is not sustainable. Not by a longshot. Whether the industry tries to police itself or they keep barrelling towards insanity and wait for the feds to do it remains to be seen.
In short, nobody here is special or more enlightened or more evolved than anybody else. Not because of your body modification choices, at least. And the fact that practitioners think they can skirt SOUND, FUNDAMENTAL LAWS just because clients ASK THEM TO … well, who are the capitalist pigs now?
Look, the fact of the matter is, with Lukas and Samppa doing this procedure, it’s shown that there is no ceiling to what body modification “artists” think they’re capable of. And considering the danger that they already put clients in with ostensibly less complex procedures, that is a very scary thought.
I know Lukas was mentioning lots of stuff about government subjugation and blah blah blah (not to mention my infant penis, which seemed unnecessary, but hey — c’est la vie!), but come on. Why do people in this industry think they’re special? You need a license to work in a fucking nail salon — how does it make any sense that ANYBODY can pick up a scalpel and start cutting people?
It doesn’t. It makes NO sense. It’s getting to the point where, as a friend of mine said last night, it’s time to throw the baby out with the bathwater. “Artists” have been exploiting a system that they think doesn’t know they exist, except there’s a problem: There is NO way that authorities aren’t aware of this. And the people who get busted will not be victims of some government conspiracy to make sure we don’t tattoo our fucking faces: They will be victims of their own idiotic actions and their choice to not go through the proper channels to ensure that what they were doing was at least semi-legal.
The industry, in its current form, is not sustainable. Not by a longshot. Whether the industry tries to police itself or they keep barrelling towards insanity and wait for the feds to do it remains to be seen.
In short, nobody here is special or more enlightened or more evolved than anybody else. Not because of your body modification choices, at least. And the fact that practitioners think they can skirt SOUND, FUNDAMENTAL LAWS just because clients ASK THEM TO … well, who are the capitalist pigs now?
fucking jesus!!!! are u so fucking idiot that u really thinking that i cutting in english???!!!!! I’m cutting in finnish:)
fucking jesus!!!! are u so fucking idiot that u really thinking that i cutting in english???!!!!! I’m cutting in finnish:)
And a question for Lukas and Samppa: How much money did you charge for this procedure?
And a question for Lukas and Samppa: How much money did you charge for this procedure?
I think many are jumping the gun with bashing Lukas and Sampa. How can you comment on them correcting this mans procedure without seeing the results 3 – 6 months down the road. They may have done a great job and relieved this man of a great deal of life long pain and restriction without costing him $10,000 – $50,000 in reconstructive plastic surgery. Lukas and Sampa didn’t go into this procedure blindfolded, they drew on years of experience and research to coordinate a procedure to keep him safe and create an end result based on experience and knowledge of hundreds of former procedures. Think about how many surgeons guess on their first procedures after graduating from school on a limited hospital budget, They didn’t do that. They were experienced and knowledgable enough to preform this procedure, license or not. Many certified surgeons screw shit up until their union kicks them out ( 10 – 20 ) or their lawyer tells them they can’t afford to defend them. How is that better. Lukas and Sampa are going off success, not hiding behind a university degree.
I think many are jumping the gun with bashing Lukas and Sampa. How can you comment on them correcting this mans procedure without seeing the results 3 – 6 months down the road. They may have done a great job and relieved this man of a great deal of life long pain and restriction without costing him $10,000 – $50,000 in reconstructive plastic surgery. Lukas and Sampa didn’t go into this procedure blindfolded, they drew on years of experience and research to coordinate a procedure to keep him safe and create an end result based on experience and knowledge of hundreds of former procedures. Think about how many surgeons guess on their first procedures after graduating from school on a limited hospital budget, They didn’t do that. They were experienced and knowledgable enough to preform this procedure, license or not. Many certified surgeons screw shit up until their union kicks them out ( 10 – 20 ) or their lawyer tells them they can’t afford to defend them. How is that better. Lukas and Sampa are going off success, not hiding behind a university degree.
I’m really questioning why Jordan ever got hired to publish for bmezine.
I’m really questioning why Jordan ever got hired to publish for bmezine.
Yeah, I know his first language is not “Engrish”, but I would also say that if you were going to go about defending yourself in English to people who read English, you might want to try and have a friend who speaks it and can edit it properly do it for you so you don’t sound like a ten year old.
I would have had much more respect for someone who could have defended themselves in an intelligent way, without resulting to hurried ways of conveying their message. I have been flamed on various occasions about my opinions on scarification and branding, simply because I feel that I earned mine, the old fashioned way. Through months and months and years of pain and suffering, what I have on the outside of my body is a direct reflection of what has gone on inside my body…and yes, I do know that people get them as a reflection of inner pain that they have suffered, or to symbolize events they need to recall. And I say all the power to them. I have no issue with people undergoing procedures for surface skin decor. I myself have much coverage on the tattoo front. But this whole thread was about SURGERY. When did surgery become appropriate for these artists to perform?
Surgery, by most accounts, is not something that body modification artists claim they can do, nor should they. I’m hoping for all of you who love this stuff that a renegade clot doesn’t get released into the bloodstream from such traumas. This can result in a nice stroke or pulmonary embolism… at which point all of the decoration in the world is not going to save you.
I do notice nobody counterpointed my intelligent suggestions because it would simply be too fucking “conservative” or “selling out to the man” to do and get the education you would need to perform these procedures in a safe and sterile and appropriate environment. They have heart monitors in surgery for a reason. What if a problem had arisen, what if there was an allergic reaction to what they used to subdue the pain? I’m sure they had access to a medicine cabinet and a pair of paddles right?
Yeah, I know his first language is not “Engrish”, but I would also say that if you were going to go about defending yourself in English to people who read English, you might want to try and have a friend who speaks it and can edit it properly do it for you so you don’t sound like a ten year old.
I would have had much more respect for someone who could have defended themselves in an intelligent way, without resulting to hurried ways of conveying their message. I have been flamed on various occasions about my opinions on scarification and branding, simply because I feel that I earned mine, the old fashioned way. Through months and months and years of pain and suffering, what I have on the outside of my body is a direct reflection of what has gone on inside my body…and yes, I do know that people get them as a reflection of inner pain that they have suffered, or to symbolize events they need to recall. And I say all the power to them. I have no issue with people undergoing procedures for surface skin decor. I myself have much coverage on the tattoo front. But this whole thread was about SURGERY. When did surgery become appropriate for these artists to perform?
Surgery, by most accounts, is not something that body modification artists claim they can do, nor should they. I’m hoping for all of you who love this stuff that a renegade clot doesn’t get released into the bloodstream from such traumas. This can result in a nice stroke or pulmonary embolism… at which point all of the decoration in the world is not going to save you.
I do notice nobody counterpointed my intelligent suggestions because it would simply be too fucking “conservative” or “selling out to the man” to do and get the education you would need to perform these procedures in a safe and sterile and appropriate environment. They have heart monitors in surgery for a reason. What if a problem had arisen, what if there was an allergic reaction to what they used to subdue the pain? I’m sure they had access to a medicine cabinet and a pair of paddles right?
Jordan:
According to you, Lucas and Saampa should be incarcerated. So, why would it matter what they charged to risk their own asses to help someone better themselves?
Jordan:
According to you, Lucas and Saampa should be incarcerated. So, why would it matter what they charged to risk their own asses to help someone better themselves?
is it just me, or has jordan been completely possessed by yttrx?
is it just me, or has jordan been completely possessed by yttrx?
Poor Sally Stitches. Wanh wanh wanh.
Poor Sally Stitches. Wanh wanh wanh.
Silent/159 – Jordan got hired because he’s smart, funny, a great writer, and understands BME’s goals. The points he’s raising, while I don’t personally agree with all of them (but I’m well known as falling on the “rebel body hacking” side of the political fence), are very valid.
Deanna – I think you didn’t get a response to some of the points you raised because they’re old hat. I’ll say again that what differentiates this procedure from other heavy mods THAT NEARLY EVERYONE (at least in BMEland) SUPPORTS are technicalities. The concerns you raised are a concern for many other procedures.
Silent/159 – Jordan got hired because he’s smart, funny, a great writer, and understands BME’s goals. The points he’s raising, while I don’t personally agree with all of them (but I’m well known as falling on the “rebel body hacking” side of the political fence), are very valid.
Deanna – I think you didn’t get a response to some of the points you raised because they’re old hat. I’ll say again that what differentiates this procedure from other heavy mods THAT NEARLY EVERYONE (at least in BMEland) SUPPORTS are technicalities. The concerns you raised are a concern for many other procedures.
Shannon:
I don’t dispute Jordan’s writing capabilities.
I never realized BME’s goal was to incarcerate some of our more talented body artists.
I don’t agree with saying that because it isn’t legalized by our government means that our body is not our own to do with what we please.
Going to these artists and having them perform some of our inner desired needs that plastic surgeons won’t touch with a ten foot pole or having you go through years of councel because it must be psychological is non sense.
Semi-legal is still not legal. Having Lucas and Saamba gain nursing qualifications. Would then make it alright in the eyes of Jordan for them to be performing heavier modifications? Where does it end?
Shannon:
I don’t dispute Jordan’s writing capabilities.
I never realized BME’s goal was to incarcerate some of our more talented body artists.
I don’t agree with saying that because it isn’t legalized by our government means that our body is not our own to do with what we please.
Going to these artists and having them perform some of our inner desired needs that plastic surgeons won’t touch with a ten foot pole or having you go through years of councel because it must be psychological is non sense.
Semi-legal is still not legal. Having Lucas and Saamba gain nursing qualifications. Would then make it alright in the eyes of Jordan for them to be performing heavier modifications? Where does it end?
Nevermind that. How about where does it begin?
Will we then be stepping backward 10yrs, possibly further?
Nevermind that. How about where does it begin?
Will we then be stepping backward 10yrs, possibly further?
Silent–Poor sally stitches, is something I’ve heard many times over. Try again. Point being my pain and suffering were a RESULT of said surgeries, not something I was trying to exercise out by cutting into my own flesh. I would guess that if you had your sternum cracked open twice, you would wanh wanh wanh. I, on the other hand, never did.
Shannon. This is where we disagree. And being a part of this community for as long as I have (since 1999), I have heard the arguments..but these are not technicalities but realities. When you are cutting down through all layers to the fatty tissue, this is something that can happen. AS well as potential allergic reactions. When you are not in a hospital setting where all of the possible exepected and unexpected outcomes can occur, you run the risk of seriously fucking someone up.
And Jordan is probably the only one who has been consistent in defending his stance. He does not have to agree with what the majority here think simply because he writes for the zine. I would assume that all of you might respect that–there is no need to agree with all arguments, much like I suspect most don’t agree with my point of view. The point is, there are MANY points of view, and opinions, which have every right to be expressed.
Silent–Poor sally stitches, is something I’ve heard many times over. Try again. Point being my pain and suffering were a RESULT of said surgeries, not something I was trying to exercise out by cutting into my own flesh. I would guess that if you had your sternum cracked open twice, you would wanh wanh wanh. I, on the other hand, never did.
Shannon. This is where we disagree. And being a part of this community for as long as I have (since 1999), I have heard the arguments..but these are not technicalities but realities. When you are cutting down through all layers to the fatty tissue, this is something that can happen. AS well as potential allergic reactions. When you are not in a hospital setting where all of the possible exepected and unexpected outcomes can occur, you run the risk of seriously fucking someone up.
And Jordan is probably the only one who has been consistent in defending his stance. He does not have to agree with what the majority here think simply because he writes for the zine. I would assume that all of you might respect that–there is no need to agree with all arguments, much like I suspect most don’t agree with my point of view. The point is, there are MANY points of view, and opinions, which have every right to be expressed.
Looking at the original picture of hte fresh cutting, it does look a little deep, but not as deep as the center cut, and not nearly as wide. In my opinion, Howie isn’t totally at fault for the results of Bastien’s scar, as it seems he’s someone who just happens to be prone to huge keloid scars.
As far as the corrective procedure, as a body mod artist myself, I wouldnt’ have attempted to do anything to this, but if Samppa and Lukas were comfortable doing it and felt confident that they could help Bastien fix his problem, and he wanted them to do it, I don’t see the problem. Yes, cutting him that deep to fix it is a bit more extreme than most scarification, but it really isnt’ that much more dangerous or more surgical than transcrotals, amputations, castrations, etc that people elect to have body mod artists do all the time.
And to the people that are complaining about Jordan, he has a right to his opinion as do you, and he did write some great articles on BME, so bashing him for his opinion just because it isn’t the same as yours is pretty ridiculous.
Looking at the original picture of hte fresh cutting, it does look a little deep, but not as deep as the center cut, and not nearly as wide. In my opinion, Howie isn’t totally at fault for the results of Bastien’s scar, as it seems he’s someone who just happens to be prone to huge keloid scars.
As far as the corrective procedure, as a body mod artist myself, I wouldnt’ have attempted to do anything to this, but if Samppa and Lukas were comfortable doing it and felt confident that they could help Bastien fix his problem, and he wanted them to do it, I don’t see the problem. Yes, cutting him that deep to fix it is a bit more extreme than most scarification, but it really isnt’ that much more dangerous or more surgical than transcrotals, amputations, castrations, etc that people elect to have body mod artists do all the time.
And to the people that are complaining about Jordan, he has a right to his opinion as do you, and he did write some great articles on BME, so bashing him for his opinion just because it isn’t the same as yours is pretty ridiculous.
we did this procedure for free. I don’t need money so badly that i start charging money from guy who really needs help.
and deanna: i don’t give a shit about ur respect. and if u can respect only bod mod artist who’s first language is english, then it’s ur own fucking problem, but make sure then, that u don’t get any bod mod from ppl from other countries.i’m sorry that my scalpel don’t speak ur language. And do u know what, i don’t have do defence, i made my client happy and that is only thing what i care. i don’t care about virtual losers like u. Or online doctors, who can tell everything about our procedure from a few pics.
I give free advice to all online doctors, get a life, go out and find something better to do. This procedure is not much different than big scarification, or some other big bod mod work.
and “jordan”: all bod mod artists who have done big work understand that our procedure wasn’t really major surgery. But for ppl who don’t know anything about these things and see only few bloody pics and see some fat tissue, thinks that this kinda procedure needs at least 10 surgeons to do it and 20 ambulances for waiting outside if something goes wrong they can drive this chopped poor guy to another hospital
we did this procedure for free. I don’t need money so badly that i start charging money from guy who really needs help.
and deanna: i don’t give a shit about ur respect. and if u can respect only bod mod artist who’s first language is english, then it’s ur own fucking problem, but make sure then, that u don’t get any bod mod from ppl from other countries.i’m sorry that my scalpel don’t speak ur language. And do u know what, i don’t have do defence, i made my client happy and that is only thing what i care. i don’t care about virtual losers like u. Or online doctors, who can tell everything about our procedure from a few pics.
I give free advice to all online doctors, get a life, go out and find something better to do. This procedure is not much different than big scarification, or some other big bod mod work.
and “jordan”: all bod mod artists who have done big work understand that our procedure wasn’t really major surgery. But for ppl who don’t know anything about these things and see only few bloody pics and see some fat tissue, thinks that this kinda procedure needs at least 10 surgeons to do it and 20 ambulances for waiting outside if something goes wrong they can drive this chopped poor guy to another hospital
jordan … we didnt get payed for this procedure . in french we name this “deontologie”.
jordan … we didnt get payed for this procedure . in french we name this “deontologie”.
Silent – Obviously it isn’t. Jordan has moved on from working for BME and speaks for himself in this thread. As I said, I don’t happen to agree with him in this case; I suspect my view is much closer to yours in fact. But that doesn’t mean I don’t respect his opinion. Jordan is a very smart guy who is deeply aware of what goes on in this community and industry… Even if you don’t agree with him, it’s worth considering what he says because a lot of other bright people are going to agree.
Deanna – I’m not saying those risks aren’t real; I’m saying that Lukas and Samppa (and Bastien too I assume) are perfectly aware of them and their implications.
…and as Stainless pointed out, this is certainly no more risky than “piercings” like transscrotals. I’d actually suggest it’s LESS risky than a transscrotal…
Silent – Obviously it isn’t. Jordan has moved on from working for BME and speaks for himself in this thread. As I said, I don’t happen to agree with him in this case; I suspect my view is much closer to yours in fact. But that doesn’t mean I don’t respect his opinion. Jordan is a very smart guy who is deeply aware of what goes on in this community and industry… Even if you don’t agree with him, it’s worth considering what he says because a lot of other bright people are going to agree.
Deanna – I’m not saying those risks aren’t real; I’m saying that Lukas and Samppa (and Bastien too I assume) are perfectly aware of them and their implications.
…and as Stainless pointed out, this is certainly no more risky than “piercings” like transscrotals. I’d actually suggest it’s LESS risky than a transscrotal…
and jordan: even if we were charging money, it wouldn’t be your fucking business
and jordan: even if we were charging money, it wouldn’t be your fucking business
Oh Samppa. You are doing yourself a disservice to even respond to these comments if that is what you have to say for yourself. If you believed in what you did so firmly, I would assume you wouldn’t bother.
But to wrongly state 10 surgeons were necessary. And 20 ambulances, I would say that your ending statement shows how much you care or know about what you are doing. The “poor chopped guy” you worked on is lucky to be alive if this is how little you cared about his life.
I wouldn’t get body mod from ppl from other countries because I’m fairly sure I know more about human physiology than u do.
Do yourself the service of not responding if that is what you come out with. I’m not sure how many people have read this and have new hope for your talents.
And all I can say is, if even one person has reconsidered going to a body modification artist for surgery, then my opinion is completely valid.
Oh Samppa. You are doing yourself a disservice to even respond to these comments if that is what you have to say for yourself. If you believed in what you did so firmly, I would assume you wouldn’t bother.
But to wrongly state 10 surgeons were necessary. And 20 ambulances, I would say that your ending statement shows how much you care or know about what you are doing. The “poor chopped guy” you worked on is lucky to be alive if this is how little you cared about his life.
I wouldn’t get body mod from ppl from other countries because I’m fairly sure I know more about human physiology than u do.
Do yourself the service of not responding if that is what you come out with. I’m not sure how many people have read this and have new hope for your talents.
And all I can say is, if even one person has reconsidered going to a body modification artist for surgery, then my opinion is completely valid.
Shannon. Just one more thing…
Being aware is great. Making sure other people are aware, their potential clients, is something that needs to be reiterated to ensure EVERYONE knows what is and what is not possible.
Shannon. Just one more thing…
Being aware is great. Making sure other people are aware, their potential clients, is something that needs to be reiterated to ensure EVERYONE knows what is and what is not possible.
who is the most able to do this procedure … a doctor , because he got a license , or a bodmod practitioner whos working since a decade specificly on wounds, implants, cheloids, skin problemes etc ?!
Ive seen many doctor praticing wrong procedure . actualy Im really scared about what they do . a licence is just a licence . thats not mean that you are beter than other . that just mean that you are protected in case of mystakes . and they are doing a lot of mystakes … after 10 years of practicing our speciality, we should have as well a licence probably 🙂
who is the most able to do this procedure … a doctor , because he got a license , or a bodmod practitioner whos working since a decade specificly on wounds, implants, cheloids, skin problemes etc ?!
Ive seen many doctor praticing wrong procedure . actualy Im really scared about what they do . a licence is just a licence . thats not mean that you are beter than other . that just mean that you are protected in case of mystakes . and they are doing a lot of mystakes … after 10 years of practicing our speciality, we should have as well a licence probably 🙂
Re: “I wouldn’t get body mod from ppl from other countries because I’m fairly sure I know more about human physiology than u do.”
Oh come on. That’s just ridiculous. Only Americans can do body modification?
And this guy isn’t “lucky to be alive”. The procedure had risks, serious ones, but I wouldn’t put it in the “life threatening” category. In terms of procedures that are common, this is far from the most dangerous. I’ve literally seen THOUSANDS of procedures more dangerous than this one.
Re: “I wouldn’t get body mod from ppl from other countries because I’m fairly sure I know more about human physiology than u do.”
Oh come on. That’s just ridiculous. Only Americans can do body modification?
And this guy isn’t “lucky to be alive”. The procedure had risks, serious ones, but I wouldn’t put it in the “life threatening” category. In terms of procedures that are common, this is far from the most dangerous. I’ve literally seen THOUSANDS of procedures more dangerous than this one.
Adding to what Lukas said, I’ve seen doctors severely mess up procedures related to body modification on a very consistent basis. Obviously there are many doctors who are bodmod friendly, and even involved, but the vast majority do not like or understand what we do.
I’ve seen more bad advice and bad procedures from good doctors than I have from underground practitioners. And that’s a disturbing statement on so many levels.
Adding to what Lukas said, I’ve seen doctors severely mess up procedures related to body modification on a very consistent basis. Obviously there are many doctors who are bodmod friendly, and even involved, but the vast majority do not like or understand what we do.
I’ve seen more bad advice and bad procedures from good doctors than I have from underground practitioners. And that’s a disturbing statement on so many levels.
(Not that scar treatment isn’t something doctors do — I mean that statement in general)
(Not that scar treatment isn’t something doctors do — I mean that statement in general)
“Oh Samppa. You are doing yourself a disservice to even respond to these comments if that is what you have to say for yourself. If you believed in what you did so firmly, I would assume you wouldnât bother.
But to wrongly state 10 surgeons were necessary. And 20 ambulances, I would say that your ending statement shows how much you care or know about what you are doing. The âpoor chopped guyâ? you worked on is lucky to be alive if this is how little you cared about his life.”
If he responds, he does himself a ‘disservice’. If he doesn’t, he appears uncaring and maverick. Lose-lose?
Where do you interpret that Samppa doesn’t care about the safety of his clients? I think both he and Lukas have made it pretty clear that they care enough to undertake both the procedure and monitored aftercare with complete seriousness.
“Oh Samppa. You are doing yourself a disservice to even respond to these comments if that is what you have to say for yourself. If you believed in what you did so firmly, I would assume you wouldnât bother.
But to wrongly state 10 surgeons were necessary. And 20 ambulances, I would say that your ending statement shows how much you care or know about what you are doing. The âpoor chopped guyâ? you worked on is lucky to be alive if this is how little you cared about his life.”
If he responds, he does himself a ‘disservice’. If he doesn’t, he appears uncaring and maverick. Lose-lose?
Where do you interpret that Samppa doesn’t care about the safety of his clients? I think both he and Lukas have made it pretty clear that they care enough to undertake both the procedure and monitored aftercare with complete seriousness.
around 1000 peoples die every year in us from hospital infections !
around 1000 peoples die every year in us from hospital infections !
Please realize that Deanna is godliness in earning her scars. Ours are mere plies of pitiful attention and self mutilation.
This topic is foreign to her.
Please realize that Deanna is godliness in earning her scars. Ours are mere plies of pitiful attention and self mutilation.
This topic is foreign to her.
Shannon,
I wouldn’t do it period. My body modifications, though necessary to sustain my life, were done by surgeons at hospitals. The last open heart I had done was by someone who had been doing them since 1968. This is not an american versus a non-american thing.
And yeah, we are all aware of the risks that come with going into the hospital for surgery. I had a stroke after that open heart, not due to the surgeon’s lack of skills, but because unpredictable things can happen when you are dealing with people on an individual basis. No two bodies are alike, and reactions cannot be predicted as such. But I was in the hospital, and they had the tools necessary to resucitate me. They were ready for EVERY possible outcome, and these guys definitely were not. They were basically just hoping for the best…using their ten years of skills as justification that they knew what they were doing.
My point being in the defense was that he is not doing a good job defending himself if he does so with rage and insistence. When you are basically advertising your skills or knowledge, or lackthereof when responding, it would probably be a good idea to address points and not try and attack people on a personal level because you don’t know how to justify your means to the end.
Shannon,
I wouldn’t do it period. My body modifications, though necessary to sustain my life, were done by surgeons at hospitals. The last open heart I had done was by someone who had been doing them since 1968. This is not an american versus a non-american thing.
And yeah, we are all aware of the risks that come with going into the hospital for surgery. I had a stroke after that open heart, not due to the surgeon’s lack of skills, but because unpredictable things can happen when you are dealing with people on an individual basis. No two bodies are alike, and reactions cannot be predicted as such. But I was in the hospital, and they had the tools necessary to resucitate me. They were ready for EVERY possible outcome, and these guys definitely were not. They were basically just hoping for the best…using their ten years of skills as justification that they knew what they were doing.
My point being in the defense was that he is not doing a good job defending himself if he does so with rage and insistence. When you are basically advertising your skills or knowledge, or lackthereof when responding, it would probably be a good idea to address points and not try and attack people on a personal level because you don’t know how to justify your means to the end.
Silent,
The topic is not foreign to me. I have very close friends who have undergone these procedures. I’m not some secretary hiding behind her cublicle not understanding the plights of people who choose to go through with it. We have discussed it and we all respect each other’s opinions. But we allow each other the space to express them and appreciate our points of view that come with different experiences.
I have an opinion that differs from yours. And I wouldn’t negate your feelings because of it. You, on the other hand, have used some spanky little comments to try and express your opinion, which is completely invalid to my argument.
Silent,
The topic is not foreign to me. I have very close friends who have undergone these procedures. I’m not some secretary hiding behind her cublicle not understanding the plights of people who choose to go through with it. We have discussed it and we all respect each other’s opinions. But we allow each other the space to express them and appreciate our points of view that come with different experiences.
I have an opinion that differs from yours. And I wouldn’t negate your feelings because of it. You, on the other hand, have used some spanky little comments to try and express your opinion, which is completely invalid to my argument.
I was under the impression that radiation therapy was the only way to cut down the chances of keloids coming back. Since this wasn’t done in a hospital I’m pretty sure that this guy doesn’t have this option.
I was under the impression that radiation therapy was the only way to cut down the chances of keloids coming back. Since this wasn’t done in a hospital I’m pretty sure that this guy doesn’t have this option.
Deanna – So what you’re saying is that you’re commenting on a subject that you’re ignorant of and have no experience with? I don’t mean that to sound rude; what I mean is that I don’t think you really understand the context of these procedures and are giving feedback that’s a little irrelevant and off base. Comparing open heart surgery with scarification? Telling people they should get therapy instead of body modification? Give me a break!
That said, I agree with you that responding with anger is a mistake.
Deanna – So what you’re saying is that you’re commenting on a subject that you’re ignorant of and have no experience with? I don’t mean that to sound rude; what I mean is that I don’t think you really understand the context of these procedures and are giving feedback that’s a little irrelevant and off base. Comparing open heart surgery with scarification? Telling people they should get therapy instead of body modification? Give me a break!
That said, I agree with you that responding with anger is a mistake.
And having a black friend doesn’t make you understand the experience of being black.
And having a black friend doesn’t make you understand the experience of being black.
deanna: so if u call open heart surgery a body modification, so what’s ur problem with our keloid removing?
deanna: so if u call open heart surgery a body modification, so what’s ur problem with our keloid removing?
Good grief, Shannon. You know the people I have called friends, and some of these people who have undergone serious, serious body modification, have lived in my house. Not being someone who has undergone the extensive body modification procedures does not make me ignorant. Jerome, Xeon, and Faulkner–all have stayed in my home. And I have called them brothers and close friends regardless of what they choose to do with their bodies.
And therapy, yeah. I truly believe it should be a possible alternative option to be explored. Not because I think that people who seek this expression need to be institutionalized…but because when you are young and your mind is still being molded, certain things seem bigger than when you are an adult.
And for those who want to discuss these personal issues or differing opinions outside of this thread…My iam name is deAa. Go hate me there and leave these forums for what they were intended for.
Good grief, Shannon. You know the people I have called friends, and some of these people who have undergone serious, serious body modification, have lived in my house. Not being someone who has undergone the extensive body modification procedures does not make me ignorant. Jerome, Xeon, and Faulkner–all have stayed in my home. And I have called them brothers and close friends regardless of what they choose to do with their bodies.
And therapy, yeah. I truly believe it should be a possible alternative option to be explored. Not because I think that people who seek this expression need to be institutionalized…but because when you are young and your mind is still being molded, certain things seem bigger than when you are an adult.
And for those who want to discuss these personal issues or differing opinions outside of this thread…My iam name is deAa. Go hate me there and leave these forums for what they were intended for.
“If the original practitioner is named, will open and free discussion of âpioneering artistsâ who have taken a stance of âyou knew the dangers when I did the procedure. I will not assist you now that it has gone wrong.â? be encouraged?”
It has nothing to do with knowing the dangers, it has to do with the bodmod artist (Howie) cutting too deep, being not qulifiyed enough for doing skin removals and still doing them.
Seroiusly, it’s not something he will put in his portfolio, and why the fuck as a potentional customer should I see only his successful works and not his mistakes? He should take a responsobility for everything that he does, that’s fucking just. Showing off the ok works only (not much in his case) and hiding failures like that is simply mean. And please â the people who say that the original artist has nothing to do with it and the keloid would form like this anyway â just give me a break. Read the entry again â it was cut TOO DEEP.
About all the “legality” discussions â the biggest problem for me is that society/system/gouvernment decides for you what is legal and right to do to your body.
If the implants,scarifications and whatever heavy mods were offered, researched and encouraged by medical industry the same way as breast,nose jobs and lypossucions most of the problems discussed here wouldn’t exist. The core of the problem is that official medicine rejects and supresses body modification and people who want to modify themselves not in the established norms, thus pushing those people outside of it. If people could get heavy body modifications by doctors in hospitals and bod mod artists could work in the same professional conditions I think most would do so. It’s so biased to blame the bod mod artist for practicing surgery without medical education and not the fascist system and official medicine who firsthand create this situation.
And there is so much hypocrisy in all of that â if we talk about plastic surgeons, there are so many disasters happening â people dying from lyposuccions, getting paralyzed and loosing limbs due to the badly done breast implants etc etc.
The only problem for me in this case with bod mod artists is that some of them just jump in a bangwagon and do things they don’t know how to do. Itâs not a matter of the official medical degree, but skill and experience which Howie didn’t have. As for Sammpa and Lukas Zpira, they have it and in this situation they did pretty well.
“If the original practitioner is named, will open and free discussion of âpioneering artistsâ who have taken a stance of âyou knew the dangers when I did the procedure. I will not assist you now that it has gone wrong.â? be encouraged?”
It has nothing to do with knowing the dangers, it has to do with the bodmod artist (Howie) cutting too deep, being not qulifiyed enough for doing skin removals and still doing them.
Seroiusly, it’s not something he will put in his portfolio, and why the fuck as a potentional customer should I see only his successful works and not his mistakes? He should take a responsobility for everything that he does, that’s fucking just. Showing off the ok works only (not much in his case) and hiding failures like that is simply mean. And please â the people who say that the original artist has nothing to do with it and the keloid would form like this anyway â just give me a break. Read the entry again â it was cut TOO DEEP.
About all the “legality” discussions â the biggest problem for me is that society/system/gouvernment decides for you what is legal and right to do to your body.
If the implants,scarifications and whatever heavy mods were offered, researched and encouraged by medical industry the same way as breast,nose jobs and lypossucions most of the problems discussed here wouldn’t exist. The core of the problem is that official medicine rejects and supresses body modification and people who want to modify themselves not in the established norms, thus pushing those people outside of it. If people could get heavy body modifications by doctors in hospitals and bod mod artists could work in the same professional conditions I think most would do so. It’s so biased to blame the bod mod artist for practicing surgery without medical education and not the fascist system and official medicine who firsthand create this situation.
And there is so much hypocrisy in all of that â if we talk about plastic surgeons, there are so many disasters happening â people dying from lyposuccions, getting paralyzed and loosing limbs due to the badly done breast implants etc etc.
The only problem for me in this case with bod mod artists is that some of them just jump in a bangwagon and do things they don’t know how to do. Itâs not a matter of the official medical degree, but skill and experience which Howie didn’t have. As for Sammpa and Lukas Zpira, they have it and in this situation they did pretty well.
i think its cool that they were able to help him. i think Lukas Zpira is super cool 🙂
i think its cool that they were able to help him. i think Lukas Zpira is super cool 🙂
Deanna – Well, since you mention Jerome, he’s been involved in a LOT more serious procedures than this one. So has Allen. Xeon most likely as well. The fact that you say they’re your friends “despite what they do” suggests that you don’t really even respect them. And it certainly shows you don’t understand them.
Kivaka – The perfect Kivaka response 🙂
Deanna – Well, since you mention Jerome, he’s been involved in a LOT more serious procedures than this one. So has Allen. Xeon most likely as well. The fact that you say they’re your friends “despite what they do” suggests that you don’t really even respect them. And it certainly shows you don’t understand them.
Kivaka – The perfect Kivaka response 🙂
But hey, English isn’t my first language either, maybe I just don’t understand what you’re saying.
But hey, English isn’t my first language either, maybe I just don’t understand what you’re saying.
And Deanna, if you think that body modification is done as a “therapy” and in order to resolve some personal problems, it’s because you’re so obsessed with yours and need therapy yourself so badly that you can’t imagine people practicing body modification for other reasons. You’re missing the fucking point. Many people didn’t make it for therapy or healing – just because they love and enjoy it.
And Deanna, if you think that body modification is done as a “therapy” and in order to resolve some personal problems, it’s because you’re so obsessed with yours and need therapy yourself so badly that you can’t imagine people practicing body modification for other reasons. You’re missing the fucking point. Many people didn’t make it for therapy or healing – just because they love and enjoy it.
PS. Lukas, vous pouvez répondre en français. Il n’y a aucun besoin de maintenir toutes les conversations dans anglais.
PS. Lukas, vous pouvez répondre en français. Il n’y a aucun besoin de maintenir toutes les conversations dans anglais.
The idea that Howie cut too deep is only the personal opinion of Lukas and I. However, it was not so deep that it was a danger to the client or a very obvious mistake. I have seen much more deep and risky scarifications with no keloid at all. You have to factor in placement, skin type, and there is always the risk that someone’s skin will react in a bad way. There is no way to predict that.
We didn’t want to make Howie look bad by providing pictures. In fact we had no intention of saying who it was in the first place. We just wanted to use the pictures as a way to show some of the more serious complications that can be caused by scarification as well as ways to correct them.
The procedure that we did was not a big or risky. Anyone who has done procedures, including doctors, should understand that we just removed a piece of skin and put the remaining skin back together. It’s as simple as that! Lukas and I both have done 1000s of stitches so it’s not as if we were trying something new for the first time. I didn’t see any risks more than you would see from any other procedure. The procedure itself was sterile and the follow up was and continues to be extensive.
The idea that Howie cut too deep is only the personal opinion of Lukas and I. However, it was not so deep that it was a danger to the client or a very obvious mistake. I have seen much more deep and risky scarifications with no keloid at all. You have to factor in placement, skin type, and there is always the risk that someone’s skin will react in a bad way. There is no way to predict that.
We didn’t want to make Howie look bad by providing pictures. In fact we had no intention of saying who it was in the first place. We just wanted to use the pictures as a way to show some of the more serious complications that can be caused by scarification as well as ways to correct them.
The procedure that we did was not a big or risky. Anyone who has done procedures, including doctors, should understand that we just removed a piece of skin and put the remaining skin back together. It’s as simple as that! Lukas and I both have done 1000s of stitches so it’s not as if we were trying something new for the first time. I didn’t see any risks more than you would see from any other procedure. The procedure itself was sterile and the follow up was and continues to be extensive.
ok guys, i think i have to talk about this fucking problem
first, i have to thanks again lukas and samppa for this work and tell that i feel fucking great now. the scars look good, and that i had absolutely no problem from the beginning of this procedure to this moment i talk to you,
second, i fucking not understand why those kind of photos take a place in this site, cause i have to tell everyone that all those pictures was post without my permission, but well,
third, and the main point, to all the persons who post bad comments about everything, LETS TALK SHIT about the way
this problem is not yours and it s only mine and samppa, lukas too. Mind your own business, specialy if its only for saying that SHIT.
now, i am fucking disappointed about the way bodmod, speciallly on this website, turns. at th beginning, all the modify persons asked other to be openminded and we are here for bullshit, specially all the gossip who do absolutely nothing, exept spending hours and hours talking problems they really dont know.
so, now, i am really fed up about his story, and to close it, i only will say, that, because i really dont accept how those things can turns, specially on bme, i wont be anymore on this site, and only leave it to all the fucking gossip you do, and all the fucking squareminded you turn.
thanks a lot for waste my, and other guy, time ( specially about my FRIEND lukas)
now do something
LETS TALK SHIT
ok guys, i think i have to talk about this fucking problem
first, i have to thanks again lukas and samppa for this work and tell that i feel fucking great now. the scars look good, and that i had absolutely no problem from the beginning of this procedure to this moment i talk to you,
second, i fucking not understand why those kind of photos take a place in this site, cause i have to tell everyone that all those pictures was post without my permission, but well,
third, and the main point, to all the persons who post bad comments about everything, LETS TALK SHIT about the way
this problem is not yours and it s only mine and samppa, lukas too. Mind your own business, specialy if its only for saying that SHIT.
now, i am fucking disappointed about the way bodmod, speciallly on this website, turns. at th beginning, all the modify persons asked other to be openminded and we are here for bullshit, specially all the gossip who do absolutely nothing, exept spending hours and hours talking problems they really dont know.
so, now, i am really fed up about his story, and to close it, i only will say, that, because i really dont accept how those things can turns, specially on bme, i wont be anymore on this site, and only leave it to all the fucking gossip you do, and all the fucking squareminded you turn.
thanks a lot for waste my, and other guy, time ( specially about my FRIEND lukas)
now do something
LETS TALK SHIT
Well said, Samppa.
And Bastien, I can answer #2 — the photos were sent by Samppa. I’m sure he meant no offense in doing so, and no one expected we’d have this reaction.
And I think that boycotting BME because you don’t like what a few READERS of ModBlog had to say is a little silly and definitely unfair.
Well said, Samppa.
And Bastien, I can answer #2 — the photos were sent by Samppa. I’m sure he meant no offense in doing so, and no one expected we’d have this reaction.
And I think that boycotting BME because you don’t like what a few READERS of ModBlog had to say is a little silly and definitely unfair.
Bastien,
I’m glad that you responded about how you feel. At the end of the day it is your body and your happiness. You have a right to choose what you want to do with your own body. You also have a right to choose who does what you want. I am happy you are feeling well and that Lukas and I were able to help you!
However, like Shannon said, boycotting BME is not the answer. The fact of the matter is that no matter where you go you will find negative people. You can’t keep them out of everything. On BME there are far more accepting, supportive people than a bunch of negative assholes.
I also want to explain that I sent in those pictures in because Lukas and I as artists have a right to show our work and we felt that this was something that was important to share with others.
Bastien,
I’m glad that you responded about how you feel. At the end of the day it is your body and your happiness. You have a right to choose what you want to do with your own body. You also have a right to choose who does what you want. I am happy you are feeling well and that Lukas and I were able to help you!
However, like Shannon said, boycotting BME is not the answer. The fact of the matter is that no matter where you go you will find negative people. You can’t keep them out of everything. On BME there are far more accepting, supportive people than a bunch of negative assholes.
I also want to explain that I sent in those pictures in because Lukas and I as artists have a right to show our work and we felt that this was something that was important to share with others.
woooooo 200th post.
ahem.
woooooo 200th post.
ahem.
deanna, when you start making ‘intelligent suggestions’, i’m sure lots of people will counterpoint. so far all you have suggested is that you are an angry and bitter american who wants to lash out at everyone and anyone for your misfortunes.
please enlighten us with your qualifications in human physiology.
by the way, the majority of the surgical procedures i’ve performed have been on the ground covered by a plastic sheet. to scrub up i use antiseptic flash gel and wear latex gloves. and i’ve yet to have anyone come down with a secondary infection.
it’s quite clear the only one defending themselves with rage and insistance would be yourself.
deanna, when you start making ‘intelligent suggestions’, i’m sure lots of people will counterpoint. so far all you have suggested is that you are an angry and bitter american who wants to lash out at everyone and anyone for your misfortunes.
please enlighten us with your qualifications in human physiology.
by the way, the majority of the surgical procedures i’ve performed have been on the ground covered by a plastic sheet. to scrub up i use antiseptic flash gel and wear latex gloves. and i’ve yet to have anyone come down with a secondary infection.
it’s quite clear the only one defending themselves with rage and insistance would be yourself.
overall moral of this so far for all those just joining us –
questionable procedure done by zpira and sammpa (like lots of mods)
man is ok so far
people are mad
and deeana is insane, bigoted against non americans and in generel seems largely unstable.
overall moral of this so far for all those just joining us –
questionable procedure done by zpira and sammpa (like lots of mods)
man is ok so far
people are mad
and deeana is insane, bigoted against non americans and in generel seems largely unstable.
I think this episode should be bringing modification artists and enthusiasts together to consider what licencing requirements should be. Because things like tongue splitting, subincising, et cetera, are being done, we should be thinking about how to make sure these procedures are only being done safely. Rather than badmouthing doctors, more of an effort needs to be done to reach out to them so that there will be more medically licenced people available to do elective procedures which should only be performed under aseptic operating conditions.
Education and communication should be encouraged, rather than secretiveness and one-up-manship.
I think this episode should be bringing modification artists and enthusiasts together to consider what licencing requirements should be. Because things like tongue splitting, subincising, et cetera, are being done, we should be thinking about how to make sure these procedures are only being done safely. Rather than badmouthing doctors, more of an effort needs to be done to reach out to them so that there will be more medically licenced people available to do elective procedures which should only be performed under aseptic operating conditions.
Education and communication should be encouraged, rather than secretiveness and one-up-manship.
hahah.
You all are entirely too much. There has been no indication of any rage in anything that I have written, but it’s up to you to make your own interpretations.
Again, it shows a certain level of maturity to go and shoot judgements about someone you know absolutely nothing about aside from comments she has posted regarding an opinion. Opinions I had every right to state, and had shown every aspect to be supported—
You can call me whatever names you want, insane, bitter American, whatever it is that may make you happy. Personally, I could give a shit, and I did give you my iam name to follow through with your threats and judgements instead of littering up the thread with it.
I would suggest we all respect the wishes of the young man who underwent the procedure and shut the fuck up already.
You won’t catch me reading any responses to this or anything else you might have to sling at me.
And Shannon—I’m fairly sure that the friendships that I have held and the people who have lived with me should be making the judgements about my loyalties, not you. Sorry if that comes off as rude, but what you stated was out of line.
hahah.
You all are entirely too much. There has been no indication of any rage in anything that I have written, but it’s up to you to make your own interpretations.
Again, it shows a certain level of maturity to go and shoot judgements about someone you know absolutely nothing about aside from comments she has posted regarding an opinion. Opinions I had every right to state, and had shown every aspect to be supported—
You can call me whatever names you want, insane, bitter American, whatever it is that may make you happy. Personally, I could give a shit, and I did give you my iam name to follow through with your threats and judgements instead of littering up the thread with it.
I would suggest we all respect the wishes of the young man who underwent the procedure and shut the fuck up already.
You won’t catch me reading any responses to this or anything else you might have to sling at me.
And Shannon—I’m fairly sure that the friendships that I have held and the people who have lived with me should be making the judgements about my loyalties, not you. Sorry if that comes off as rude, but what you stated was out of line.
I just don’t understand the anti-education sentiment here. Some of you are acting like it’s an insult that I feel that heavy mod practitioners should have formal medical training to an extent.
Investing in human capital has NEVER been a bad thing, and if the next generation of doctors are mod-friendly, it will be because people who are into this kind of thing will become doctors — it will NOT be because the medical profession starts allowing random practitioners to practice medicine without a license.
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I think the APP was right in disassociating themselves from heavier procedures. An industry like this needs order — people’s lives are LITERALLY at stake.
Why would anybody be offended at the prospect of there being formal accountability for high-risk procedures? Why would anybody oppose a system that ensured that clients would have access to practitioners who have a certifiable amount of knowledge and prowess?
Proper reform might lead to the toppling of the industry as we know it, but big deal. It’s a phantom industry, anyway.
Nobody here is entitled to anything — it’s nobody’s God-given right to be a scarification artist. Piercing and tattooing have done due diligence in earning the legal right to do what they do (in most places), but the heavier mod practitioners have made no such effort. They seem to think that just because people ask them for things, that they have every right to do them. This has not, nor will it ever, be the case. People can’t just have and do everything they want.
So, really, go sell your anarchy bullshit somewhere else. If you don’t like the rules, there are proper channels to go through in order to achieve change.
I just don’t understand the anti-education sentiment here. Some of you are acting like it’s an insult that I feel that heavy mod practitioners should have formal medical training to an extent.
Investing in human capital has NEVER been a bad thing, and if the next generation of doctors are mod-friendly, it will be because people who are into this kind of thing will become doctors — it will NOT be because the medical profession starts allowing random practitioners to practice medicine without a license.
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I think the APP was right in disassociating themselves from heavier procedures. An industry like this needs order — people’s lives are LITERALLY at stake.
Why would anybody be offended at the prospect of there being formal accountability for high-risk procedures? Why would anybody oppose a system that ensured that clients would have access to practitioners who have a certifiable amount of knowledge and prowess?
Proper reform might lead to the toppling of the industry as we know it, but big deal. It’s a phantom industry, anyway.
Nobody here is entitled to anything — it’s nobody’s God-given right to be a scarification artist. Piercing and tattooing have done due diligence in earning the legal right to do what they do (in most places), but the heavier mod practitioners have made no such effort. They seem to think that just because people ask them for things, that they have every right to do them. This has not, nor will it ever, be the case. People can’t just have and do everything they want.
So, really, go sell your anarchy bullshit somewhere else. If you don’t like the rules, there are proper channels to go through in order to achieve change.
Until Allen, Xeon, and Jerome post and say they’ve lived with you and say you’re a decent person, I’m operating under the assumption that you’re simply an anonymous poster making it up.
Until Allen, Xeon, and Jerome post and say they’ve lived with you and say you’re a decent person, I’m operating under the assumption that you’re simply an anonymous poster making it up.
That’s for Deeana of course.
That’s for Deeana of course.
Bastien – First of all, thanks for making your statement clear on the matter.
I noticed that the heart under your right nipple and the small ‘side-cuts’ (both visible in the ‘fresh’ photo provided by Shannon) also seemed to keloid rather heavily.
Do you feel that the scar tissue involved was more to do with the cutting itself, the position of the cutting, your body’s own healing process or a combination of the three? Had you noticed keloiding/heavy scarring from any other procedures?
Please note that I am merely curious – I am not trying to be agressive or disparaging in any way. 🙂
I know that personally I have never keloided despite some pretty heavy-duty cutting (including 8″ long slices on my belly that went well into fatty tissue…close to 1/2″ deep). In fact, I always end up with white/silvery slightly raised or slighly sunken scars. With this knowledge I would feel far more comfortable taking the next step and undergoing more involved cutting/skin removal.
Importantly, why the hell is everyone screaming at each other? Chill, have a cup of tea (sweet, precious tea..) and converse like civilised human beings?
*n
PS: I have a cheese sandwich. This makes me the most important being on the planet for the next….two minutes? 😉
Bastien – First of all, thanks for making your statement clear on the matter.
I noticed that the heart under your right nipple and the small ‘side-cuts’ (both visible in the ‘fresh’ photo provided by Shannon) also seemed to keloid rather heavily.
Do you feel that the scar tissue involved was more to do with the cutting itself, the position of the cutting, your body’s own healing process or a combination of the three? Had you noticed keloiding/heavy scarring from any other procedures?
Please note that I am merely curious – I am not trying to be agressive or disparaging in any way. 🙂
I know that personally I have never keloided despite some pretty heavy-duty cutting (including 8″ long slices on my belly that went well into fatty tissue…close to 1/2″ deep). In fact, I always end up with white/silvery slightly raised or slighly sunken scars. With this knowledge I would feel far more comfortable taking the next step and undergoing more involved cutting/skin removal.
Importantly, why the hell is everyone screaming at each other? Chill, have a cup of tea (sweet, precious tea..) and converse like civilised human beings?
*n
PS: I have a cheese sandwich. This makes me the most important being on the planet for the next….two minutes? 😉
Jordan – If they have formal medical training, they can’t legally do these procedures without losing their licenses in many Western nations (they could do THIS one, but not non-corrective ones). Certainly not in America or Canada. That is why doctors had to stop doing tongue splitting (the ones that do it these days have to do it “underground” as well).
And yes, someone does have the right to their own body. I don’t think it’s fair to write that off as “anarchist bullshit”. It’s the most primal of all rights. And if we don’t have the right to ask someone else to manipulate our body, we don’t really have the right to our body.
Certainly laws should be in place to protect people from negligence and misdirection and so on, but there’s nothing to suggest that anything like that happened here. This procedure does ultimately boil down to whether or not people have the right to make decisions about their own body. Certainly there are arguments that we’d all be better off if the government wrote laws telling us what we can do and have done to our bodies as you suggest, but as long as we support that, we don’t really have freedom at all.
Jordan – If they have formal medical training, they can’t legally do these procedures without losing their licenses in many Western nations (they could do THIS one, but not non-corrective ones). Certainly not in America or Canada. That is why doctors had to stop doing tongue splitting (the ones that do it these days have to do it “underground” as well).
And yes, someone does have the right to their own body. I don’t think it’s fair to write that off as “anarchist bullshit”. It’s the most primal of all rights. And if we don’t have the right to ask someone else to manipulate our body, we don’t really have the right to our body.
Certainly laws should be in place to protect people from negligence and misdirection and so on, but there’s nothing to suggest that anything like that happened here. This procedure does ultimately boil down to whether or not people have the right to make decisions about their own body. Certainly there are arguments that we’d all be better off if the government wrote laws telling us what we can do and have done to our bodies as you suggest, but as long as we support that, we don’t really have freedom at all.
Regarding Mr. Zpira in post #180, the numbers appear to be much higher than a mere 1000 a year. See http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol7no2/wenzel.htm; I don’t have enough understanding of statistics to really understand that article, but another article published in the LA Times in 1992 (http://www.aegis.com/news/lt/1992/LT920704.html) suggests a figure more like 80,000. The most serious problem with infection acquired in hospitals is that they tend to be resistant to antibiotics. So, while your odds of getting an infection in a non-OR surgical environment may be higher, the infection that you might get would be more likely to respond favorably to conventional antibiotics.
Perhaps someone would care to comment on a curiosity of mine: I’ve noticed that xylocaine can be purchased over the counter in Canada by anyone. I would presume that this holds true in some other countries as well, although obviously not the US. Why would an injectable anaesthetic be sold over the counter to anyone if it’s illegal to use it without a medical license? To me that seems a little like saying it’s legal to buy/sell heroin, but not legal to shoot up.
Further question: If part of the problem with scarification on the stomach is the movement of the area, would restricting/eliminating torso movement during the healing period (with a back brace, or a corest, perhaps?) work to reduce the likelihood of keloid scarring?
All this aside, I’m happy for you Bastien. I’m glad that it worked out well for you and you are more comfortable now. It’s nice to know that you’ve gotten the results that you wanted. Congratulations to you and Mssrs. Zpira and Von Cyborg for a successful procedure.
Regarding Mr. Zpira in post #180, the numbers appear to be much higher than a mere 1000 a year. See http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol7no2/wenzel.htm; I don’t have enough understanding of statistics to really understand that article, but another article published in the LA Times in 1992 (http://www.aegis.com/news/lt/1992/LT920704.html) suggests a figure more like 80,000. The most serious problem with infection acquired in hospitals is that they tend to be resistant to antibiotics. So, while your odds of getting an infection in a non-OR surgical environment may be higher, the infection that you might get would be more likely to respond favorably to conventional antibiotics.
Perhaps someone would care to comment on a curiosity of mine: I’ve noticed that xylocaine can be purchased over the counter in Canada by anyone. I would presume that this holds true in some other countries as well, although obviously not the US. Why would an injectable anaesthetic be sold over the counter to anyone if it’s illegal to use it without a medical license? To me that seems a little like saying it’s legal to buy/sell heroin, but not legal to shoot up.
Further question: If part of the problem with scarification on the stomach is the movement of the area, would restricting/eliminating torso movement during the healing period (with a back brace, or a corest, perhaps?) work to reduce the likelihood of keloid scarring?
All this aside, I’m happy for you Bastien. I’m glad that it worked out well for you and you are more comfortable now. It’s nice to know that you’ve gotten the results that you wanted. Congratulations to you and Mssrs. Zpira and Von Cyborg for a successful procedure.
As is continually pointed out, 50% of smokers eventually die from complications related to the cigarette product… Why is that universally considered a right (even if you think people should do it in their own homes), whereas the right to choose one’s own body modification path isn’t?
As is continually pointed out, 50% of smokers eventually die from complications related to the cigarette product… Why is that universally considered a right (even if you think people should do it in their own homes), whereas the right to choose one’s own body modification path isn’t?
“licence, regulation” etc all this is just bulshit . what will worth your american licence in europe or where Im now in africa . is no way to create a worldwide licence and anyway who will decide ? even if i dont get any autorisation to practice , I will still practicing , and even if I dont get licence, people will still coming see me . the only thing is to be inteligent enouth to do the best we can . and of course , people who want to talk shit will have more to say in the futur , beacause of course in some point we will do some mistakes like most of us probably already did in the past . so what ? we work with the body and nothing can be 100 % perfect . Im tired to hear people take the first occasion to talk shit about pratictioner while they are quietly sit in the front of theire computer just trying to find something to say . I have the pretention to be able to change some little things in this world , and you know why ? just because I tryed and still trying and not stay just looking what others do to find the best way to put them down . I dont give a fuck about the respect of some people that are not anyway even part of my world . I dont do what I do for respect, glory or money , even if I apreciate wen people respect me and help me to live with what Im doing by paying an average price of 500 bucks .
I dont get payed (and dont want) for this kind of procedures…
now look the world around you .
how much do you think a “regular” doctor will charge for this kind of procedure ?
how many doctor give just a bit of their time to help peole in nead ?
how many doctor are doing wrong procedures ?!
how many people die every year in the world cause of wrong procedures ?
how many of them do what they do for make big money.
so , give me a break
“licence, regulation” etc all this is just bulshit . what will worth your american licence in europe or where Im now in africa . is no way to create a worldwide licence and anyway who will decide ? even if i dont get any autorisation to practice , I will still practicing , and even if I dont get licence, people will still coming see me . the only thing is to be inteligent enouth to do the best we can . and of course , people who want to talk shit will have more to say in the futur , beacause of course in some point we will do some mistakes like most of us probably already did in the past . so what ? we work with the body and nothing can be 100 % perfect . Im tired to hear people take the first occasion to talk shit about pratictioner while they are quietly sit in the front of theire computer just trying to find something to say . I have the pretention to be able to change some little things in this world , and you know why ? just because I tryed and still trying and not stay just looking what others do to find the best way to put them down . I dont give a fuck about the respect of some people that are not anyway even part of my world . I dont do what I do for respect, glory or money , even if I apreciate wen people respect me and help me to live with what Im doing by paying an average price of 500 bucks .
I dont get payed (and dont want) for this kind of procedures…
now look the world around you .
how much do you think a “regular” doctor will charge for this kind of procedure ?
how many doctor give just a bit of their time to help peole in nead ?
how many doctor are doing wrong procedures ?!
how many people die every year in the world cause of wrong procedures ?
how many of them do what they do for make big money.
so , give me a break
Shannon,
Xeon lived with me for several months, Allen came to visit.
Jerome is a good friend of mine…but has had some distance due to our different schedules, and because we live so far from each other..
And Ferg is my friend as well…You can call me an anonymous liar if you want to, but my point is you can be an adult and have a different opinion from someone you care for…and not be a “bad friend” as you seem to infer. I have always valued the different people I can call friends because of that fact–we all live different lives with different opinions.
And I pretty sure Phish wouldn’t call me an asshole either.
But I am not here to defend who my friends are and for what reason…it’s our business and certainly not of the collective group.
Shannon,
Xeon lived with me for several months, Allen came to visit.
Jerome is a good friend of mine…but has had some distance due to our different schedules, and because we live so far from each other..
And Ferg is my friend as well…You can call me an anonymous liar if you want to, but my point is you can be an adult and have a different opinion from someone you care for…and not be a “bad friend” as you seem to infer. I have always valued the different people I can call friends because of that fact–we all live different lives with different opinions.
And I pretty sure Phish wouldn’t call me an asshole either.
But I am not here to defend who my friends are and for what reason…it’s our business and certainly not of the collective group.
a medical licence will not make a doctor good.
a medical licence will not make a doctor good.
I’ll be watching for their posts then explaining why they don’t mind that you think they’d be better off in therapy.
I’ll be watching for their posts then explaining why they don’t mind that you think they’d be better off in therapy.
And did I say that exclusively? Nope, but for young kids, I would encourage it before they thought of getting a surgical procedure from someone who is not a doctor.
And if they put up photos of themselves doing surgery for all the world to see, it would be no different. I would disagree and argue in much the same manner. The point being we have all talked about this before…and everyone knows my stance on it. It seems to be a suprise to you only.
No matter. There’s no reason to argue MY frienships with you.
We can go round and round and round. There’s no point in me bothering any longer. I deal with these guys on my own time. There is a world outside of BME.
But thanks for not censoring these opinions I have which are so different from the collective group. I mean that.
And did I say that exclusively? Nope, but for young kids, I would encourage it before they thought of getting a surgical procedure from someone who is not a doctor.
And if they put up photos of themselves doing surgery for all the world to see, it would be no different. I would disagree and argue in much the same manner. The point being we have all talked about this before…and everyone knows my stance on it. It seems to be a suprise to you only.
No matter. There’s no reason to argue MY frienships with you.
We can go round and round and round. There’s no point in me bothering any longer. I deal with these guys on my own time. There is a world outside of BME.
But thanks for not censoring these opinions I have which are so different from the collective group. I mean that.
Hey, I approve all the comments telling me I’m an idiot — censorship never helped anyone…
Hey, I approve all the comments telling me I’m an idiot — censorship never helped anyone…
I’m not sure there’s much point in me responding to this, seeing as people don’t really seem to be listening to each other, and most of the views I have have already been expressed (mostly by shannon). But you all get to hear my opinion anyway 🙂
Personally, if this guy had come to me with his scars, I’d have sent him to a doctor to try other methods of scar removal before considering surgical excision, and even if those methods had failed, I wouldn’t have been prepared to undertake this procedure.
However, this doesn’t mean that Samppa and Lukas were irresponsible to take on this job. If it had been done in a hospital in an OR on an entirely outpatient basis, then yes, there probably would have been a slight reduction in the risk of infection, but if it had been done on an inpatient basis, the risk of a more serious antibiotic resistant infection would be greatly increased. There is a risk of infection every time the skin is broken, and the risk increases the larger the wound is. Stitiching the wounds closed, and providing a course of prophylactic antibiotics was a sensible way to reduce this risk, and monitoring the client closely for the first week while the wounds began healing helped ensure that any problem that arose could be dealt with.
Yes, if problems had arisen during the procedure, depening on what the issue was, a fully equipped OR would probably have been better placed to deal with them, however the chances of such problems arising is very slim, the client was fully aware of the risks…and these risks are considerably less than with other modification procedures commonly documented.
If you think this is something that only doctors should be allowed to do, you are entitled to that opinion, but i personally think that the procedure is less dangerous/likely to result in infection than a transscrotal piercing, a large skin removal, or even a transdermal implant. If you are of the opinion that these procedures shouldn’t be performed by mod artists either, then fair enough, otherwise i think to vilify these artists is a little shortsighted and hypocritical. There are lots more potentially dangerous things posted on modblog, and most of the comments tend to be ‘wow that’s cool’, rather than suggestions that the artist shouldnt have attempted the procedure.
I’m not even sure that all doctors would even have performed this surgery in a fully equipped OR. I have seen footage of licensed surgeons (in the US and Europe, I’m not talking about 3rd world countries here) perform facelifts and other surgical procedures in a room that looked like a consultants office, with paintings and bookshelves and other furniture that made it clear that it wasn’t an operating theatre. When doctors are going into a body cavity, I am sure that an OR would be used, but for work just centering around the skin, many doctors feel it is unnecessary.
I also think blaming the original artist for the outcome of this piece is a little unfair. Yes, from looking at the fresh pictures it wasn’t the best skin removal i’ve ever seen, and it was too deep, and in an area of high movement, but i have seen (bad) work done just as deep heal with no keloiding at all. There is a large genetic factor involved in the formation of keloid scars, so while the original piece wasn’t great, it was far from guaranteed to heal in this way.
My main concern with surgical keloid removal is that if the client is prone to keloids, they often recur. Having the area as immobilsed as possible with a medical corset was probably the best way to try and ensure the area didn’t move too much and add to the likelihood of further debilitating scarring.
In short, while this is something i would never attempt myself, i don’t think it is fair to suggest that the practitioners who did it were acting dangerously. The client chose to see them for the work, was informed of the risks, and was closely monitored. I strongly believe that we have the right to do what we want with our own bodies (and that mod artists have the right to assist us, or refuse to, as they see fit). Whether the law agrees or not should be a consideration of the artist and client, not simply a reason for people to claim it shouldn’t be done.
I’m not sure there’s much point in me responding to this, seeing as people don’t really seem to be listening to each other, and most of the views I have have already been expressed (mostly by shannon). But you all get to hear my opinion anyway 🙂
Personally, if this guy had come to me with his scars, I’d have sent him to a doctor to try other methods of scar removal before considering surgical excision, and even if those methods had failed, I wouldn’t have been prepared to undertake this procedure.
However, this doesn’t mean that Samppa and Lukas were irresponsible to take on this job. If it had been done in a hospital in an OR on an entirely outpatient basis, then yes, there probably would have been a slight reduction in the risk of infection, but if it had been done on an inpatient basis, the risk of a more serious antibiotic resistant infection would be greatly increased. There is a risk of infection every time the skin is broken, and the risk increases the larger the wound is. Stitiching the wounds closed, and providing a course of prophylactic antibiotics was a sensible way to reduce this risk, and monitoring the client closely for the first week while the wounds began healing helped ensure that any problem that arose could be dealt with.
Yes, if problems had arisen during the procedure, depening on what the issue was, a fully equipped OR would probably have been better placed to deal with them, however the chances of such problems arising is very slim, the client was fully aware of the risks…and these risks are considerably less than with other modification procedures commonly documented.
If you think this is something that only doctors should be allowed to do, you are entitled to that opinion, but i personally think that the procedure is less dangerous/likely to result in infection than a transscrotal piercing, a large skin removal, or even a transdermal implant. If you are of the opinion that these procedures shouldn’t be performed by mod artists either, then fair enough, otherwise i think to vilify these artists is a little shortsighted and hypocritical. There are lots more potentially dangerous things posted on modblog, and most of the comments tend to be ‘wow that’s cool’, rather than suggestions that the artist shouldnt have attempted the procedure.
I’m not even sure that all doctors would even have performed this surgery in a fully equipped OR. I have seen footage of licensed surgeons (in the US and Europe, I’m not talking about 3rd world countries here) perform facelifts and other surgical procedures in a room that looked like a consultants office, with paintings and bookshelves and other furniture that made it clear that it wasn’t an operating theatre. When doctors are going into a body cavity, I am sure that an OR would be used, but for work just centering around the skin, many doctors feel it is unnecessary.
I also think blaming the original artist for the outcome of this piece is a little unfair. Yes, from looking at the fresh pictures it wasn’t the best skin removal i’ve ever seen, and it was too deep, and in an area of high movement, but i have seen (bad) work done just as deep heal with no keloiding at all. There is a large genetic factor involved in the formation of keloid scars, so while the original piece wasn’t great, it was far from guaranteed to heal in this way.
My main concern with surgical keloid removal is that if the client is prone to keloids, they often recur. Having the area as immobilsed as possible with a medical corset was probably the best way to try and ensure the area didn’t move too much and add to the likelihood of further debilitating scarring.
In short, while this is something i would never attempt myself, i don’t think it is fair to suggest that the practitioners who did it were acting dangerously. The client chose to see them for the work, was informed of the risks, and was closely monitored. I strongly believe that we have the right to do what we want with our own bodies (and that mod artists have the right to assist us, or refuse to, as they see fit). Whether the law agrees or not should be a consideration of the artist and client, not simply a reason for people to claim it shouldn’t be done.
Having read 211 posts, most of which were repeating themselves multiple times to stress points that needn’t be repeated to the n-th degree, I feel I have to say something. It won’t be eloquent, it most likely won’t make much sense, but I want to say something.
The fact that money, and the cost of this procedure, was dragged up is quite rude. How much is made is not relevant – the comfort of the patient/client and success of the procedure are what are important. The fact that this was done without a cost to the client says a lot more than if they had made money from it.
I think that as long as Bastian is happy with the procedure and the way it was handled, that Samppa and Lukas are satisfied with the results and there have been no complications, I think that is really the end of the argument.
Other than that, I believe people should be able to choose what to do to their bodies, and whom they enlist to help them. And if people start ruining the reputations of the people who have experience in what they’re doing, all it leaves are the people who do hack jobs and endanger people, which in the end is far worse than one procedure that upsets a few people.
Having read 211 posts, most of which were repeating themselves multiple times to stress points that needn’t be repeated to the n-th degree, I feel I have to say something. It won’t be eloquent, it most likely won’t make much sense, but I want to say something.
The fact that money, and the cost of this procedure, was dragged up is quite rude. How much is made is not relevant – the comfort of the patient/client and success of the procedure are what are important. The fact that this was done without a cost to the client says a lot more than if they had made money from it.
I think that as long as Bastian is happy with the procedure and the way it was handled, that Samppa and Lukas are satisfied with the results and there have been no complications, I think that is really the end of the argument.
Other than that, I believe people should be able to choose what to do to their bodies, and whom they enlist to help them. And if people start ruining the reputations of the people who have experience in what they’re doing, all it leaves are the people who do hack jobs and endanger people, which in the end is far worse than one procedure that upsets a few people.
The points raised here are getting lost in character and profession bashing..which is kind of tedious.
The points raised here are getting lost in character and profession bashing..which is kind of tedious.
Vampy – I have had surgery within the last five years at a top clinic and it was not as well equipped as some body modification studios I’ve been in!
Vampy – I have had surgery within the last five years at a top clinic and it was not as well equipped as some body modification studios I’ve been in!
A good scarification artist is in my opinion more qualified than most cosmetic surgeons to deal with a situation like this.
I’ve seen egos become too much of an issue with doctors. Thinking that they are so much better than any piercer, implant/scar artist, that they lose sight of logic, and the ideal end result.
A scarification artist would be emotionally invested in HELPING the situation to give not only himself but his art a good name. Plus they are specialized in dealing with scars.
Doctors end up playing the blame game. (not all, but most)
That aside.
Fucking OW!
I have 1/3 of my body covered in scar/keloid tissue. A lot from skin grafts. No fucking picnic. The itching that scarring creates alone. Holy shit. Not fun.
A good scarification artist is in my opinion more qualified than most cosmetic surgeons to deal with a situation like this.
I’ve seen egos become too much of an issue with doctors. Thinking that they are so much better than any piercer, implant/scar artist, that they lose sight of logic, and the ideal end result.
A scarification artist would be emotionally invested in HELPING the situation to give not only himself but his art a good name. Plus they are specialized in dealing with scars.
Doctors end up playing the blame game. (not all, but most)
That aside.
Fucking OW!
I have 1/3 of my body covered in scar/keloid tissue. A lot from skin grafts. No fucking picnic. The itching that scarring creates alone. Holy shit. Not fun.
I think it’s also important to point out, that a doctor would lose his liscence in the US for doing anything to detract from the human form. So technically, we shouldn’t consider implants, tongue splitting, etc, a medical procedure. It is body modification.
I think it’s also important to point out, that a doctor would lose his liscence in the US for doing anything to detract from the human form. So technically, we shouldn’t consider implants, tongue splitting, etc, a medical procedure. It is body modification.
I haven’t taken the time to read all the comments simply because its a huge mishmash of opinions, worthless whining and opposing ideas. So i’ll just toss mine in there.
I absolutely support the situation in the pictures above. Mostly because i can definitly see how this person would have a hard time finding a dr who would actually do anything with those scars. Many dr’s won’t fix something they haven’t damaged themselves, because since evidently this person keloids easily, it can be a great liability to the repairing dr if the removal simply flares up the tendency to keloid and the guy ends up with a worse scar.
Also, I fully support both body modification doctors (i call them doctors, because a dr, is someone who has the knowledge and the specialty to deal with a certain area of medicine. Minus the diploma, these two have the knowledge, experience, tools and the ability to deal with an emergency. I strongly beleive that he was in better hands with Zpira & company than with a medical doctor.
My opinion isn’t unfounded either. As a nurse in a clinic and pharmacy, i see everything, and hear everything. The incompetency rate of doctors in today’s poor healthcare system is enormous. In Canada, you have a 75% chance of being mis-diagnosed and sent home early with improper medication and symptom control. (stats canada 2005)
I therefore trust that a body modification “doctor” can most likely do a better job of mody mod-related problems. Because of the eggshells bodmod practionners tend to walk on in different countries/states/provinces, i fully believe that both of the practionners shown in the pictures not only know what they are doing, but are prepared for ANY problems. I see no problem with this picture. And anyone who enjoys a piercing, a scar, a tattoo, shouldn’t see a problem either.
You either support your way of living, your beleifs in body modification, your piercers, your tattoo artists, your scarification artists, the community that supports these actions should therefore support advances in the arts of body modification.
That being said, I’ve WAY larger chunks of skin removed for large scarification peice. this guy is a no more risk for infection as the next person to get a large scarification peice. Its not the DEPTH that counts, its the skin. Your skin is the largest
I haven’t taken the time to read all the comments simply because its a huge mishmash of opinions, worthless whining and opposing ideas. So i’ll just toss mine in there.
I absolutely support the situation in the pictures above. Mostly because i can definitly see how this person would have a hard time finding a dr who would actually do anything with those scars. Many dr’s won’t fix something they haven’t damaged themselves, because since evidently this person keloids easily, it can be a great liability to the repairing dr if the removal simply flares up the tendency to keloid and the guy ends up with a worse scar.
Also, I fully support both body modification doctors (i call them doctors, because a dr, is someone who has the knowledge and the specialty to deal with a certain area of medicine. Minus the diploma, these two have the knowledge, experience, tools and the ability to deal with an emergency. I strongly beleive that he was in better hands with Zpira & company than with a medical doctor.
My opinion isn’t unfounded either. As a nurse in a clinic and pharmacy, i see everything, and hear everything. The incompetency rate of doctors in today’s poor healthcare system is enormous. In Canada, you have a 75% chance of being mis-diagnosed and sent home early with improper medication and symptom control. (stats canada 2005)
I therefore trust that a body modification “doctor” can most likely do a better job of mody mod-related problems. Because of the eggshells bodmod practionners tend to walk on in different countries/states/provinces, i fully believe that both of the practionners shown in the pictures not only know what they are doing, but are prepared for ANY problems. I see no problem with this picture. And anyone who enjoys a piercing, a scar, a tattoo, shouldn’t see a problem either.
You either support your way of living, your beleifs in body modification, your piercers, your tattoo artists, your scarification artists, the community that supports these actions should therefore support advances in the arts of body modification.
That being said, I’ve WAY larger chunks of skin removed for large scarification peice. this guy is a no more risk for infection as the next person to get a large scarification peice. Its not the DEPTH that counts, its the skin. Your skin is the largest
Shannon – I’ve never had any major surgery fortunately, but I did have a mole removed by my doctor last year….her knowledge of cross contamination was minimal, and the sutures were done too tightly and the wrong way. If it didnt need to be sent off for biopsy, i would have much preferred to have removed it myself, and i am sure i could have done a better job.
My only real experience of surgery was a friend who needed a fairly extensive procedure after a car accident we were in. The hospital was almost brand new, and was very well equipped. Sadly he still left with an MRSA infection. While of course the doctors saved his life, it would have been nice if the other hospital staff knew how to wash their hands/clean the rooms properly.
Shannon – I’ve never had any major surgery fortunately, but I did have a mole removed by my doctor last year….her knowledge of cross contamination was minimal, and the sutures were done too tightly and the wrong way. If it didnt need to be sent off for biopsy, i would have much preferred to have removed it myself, and i am sure i could have done a better job.
My only real experience of surgery was a friend who needed a fairly extensive procedure after a car accident we were in. The hospital was almost brand new, and was very well equipped. Sadly he still left with an MRSA infection. While of course the doctors saved his life, it would have been nice if the other hospital staff knew how to wash their hands/clean the rooms properly.
Flying is dangerous because of terrorists. Oh, more people die every day in normal city traffic than flying? Well who cares, flying is still dangerous.
Oh, and the spelling vs. intelligence argument is pure bull. Usually with people who argue that… Well, if you spelled everything 100% correctly they’d find some other excuse to dis and argue rather than listen. I personally couldn’t give a rat’s ass over an argument like that, and I’m pretty sure a lot of others in this discussion won’t either. If somebody really thinks that another one’s poor spelling makes them less intelligent or knowledgeable somehow then it really is person #1′s problem, not the poor spellers’.
I personally think a lot of this discussion is simply about having respect for others and their decisions. Others have it, others don’t. If after what you’ve contributed to this discussion you feel a slight sting, you’re probably of the latter type.
Flying is dangerous because of terrorists. Oh, more people die every day in normal city traffic than flying? Well who cares, flying is still dangerous.
Oh, and the spelling vs. intelligence argument is pure bull. Usually with people who argue that… Well, if you spelled everything 100% correctly they’d find some other excuse to dis and argue rather than listen. I personally couldn’t give a rat’s ass over an argument like that, and I’m pretty sure a lot of others in this discussion won’t either. If somebody really thinks that another one’s poor spelling makes them less intelligent or knowledgeable somehow then it really is person #1′s problem, not the poor spellers’.
I personally think a lot of this discussion is simply about having respect for others and their decisions. Others have it, others don’t. If after what you’ve contributed to this discussion you feel a slight sting, you’re probably of the latter type.
I agree totally what lukas said (post 211.)
I agree totally what lukas said (post 211.)
. i realised i didnt finish my sentence, two posts ago..
your skin is your largest organ. a cut opens it to bacteria, even the “good’ bacteria that protects you can get into it, and kill you (flesh eating disease is a good example). anyways, point it. deep or not, its surface area that matters. ive seen bigger done by a mod artist
. i realised i didnt finish my sentence, two posts ago..
your skin is your largest organ. a cut opens it to bacteria, even the “good’ bacteria that protects you can get into it, and kill you (flesh eating disease is a good example). anyways, point it. deep or not, its surface area that matters. ive seen bigger done by a mod artist
Y’know what I’ve only just noticed?
Bastien has the most beautiful, cleanest, most solid black arms I’ve seen in years. Literally.
*n
Y’know what I’ve only just noticed?
Bastien has the most beautiful, cleanest, most solid black arms I’ve seen in years. Literally.
*n
Asurfael: damnit. you stole my point! 🙂
Seriously, do you sterilize every single cut you have? A small cut has a pretty damn close statistical probability of getting a potentially dangerous infection as a large one, but at least the large one might get some appropriate attention in terms of infection control. As a nursing student, I see some pretty non-aeseptic things done within hospitals, and I certainly agree with anyone that has said that a MD license is no guarantee. Plus, every country has it’s own requirements of what is necessary to become a doctor. Obviously, there is no gold-standard for what qualifies you to slice and dice.
Personally, I would be thrilled to have an opportunity to get work done by Samppa or Zpira, as they are great practitioners who, from what I’ve seen and heard, care a great deal about their patient’s safety and satisfaction.
Asurfael: damnit. you stole my point! 🙂
Seriously, do you sterilize every single cut you have? A small cut has a pretty damn close statistical probability of getting a potentially dangerous infection as a large one, but at least the large one might get some appropriate attention in terms of infection control. As a nursing student, I see some pretty non-aeseptic things done within hospitals, and I certainly agree with anyone that has said that a MD license is no guarantee. Plus, every country has it’s own requirements of what is necessary to become a doctor. Obviously, there is no gold-standard for what qualifies you to slice and dice.
Personally, I would be thrilled to have an opportunity to get work done by Samppa or Zpira, as they are great practitioners who, from what I’ve seen and heard, care a great deal about their patient’s safety and satisfaction.
holy shit… that was a long read… i dont see what the problem is…
the guy came to them for help, and that’s what he got! how many doctors would have done that for free, and stayed with him for almost a week!
holy shit… that was a long read… i dont see what the problem is…
the guy came to them for help, and that’s what he got! how many doctors would have done that for free, and stayed with him for almost a week!
wow.
thats quasi legal, depending on where you are, there being sutures and all.
wow.
thats quasi legal, depending on where you are, there being sutures and all.
all of you have missed the point. its not about what happened after the fact but that his retarded self decided that getting scars was a good idea. people who encourage this type of behavior should not be allowed to procreate
all of you have missed the point. its not about what happened after the fact but that his retarded self decided that getting scars was a good idea. people who encourage this type of behavior should not be allowed to procreate
about time the crazys got here.
about time the crazys got here.
wow, what a novel. when i saw this entry post i knew some major bickering was about to take place, but at least this is something worthwhile of discussion.
thanks to shannon for posting this, it’s good to see the bad results along with the good. hopefully it will make people very aware that there are always risks to these procedures.
i have to say i’m a bit suprised most people don’t understand what jordan is trying to say. obviously this man has severe problems with keloids, and as far as i know if someone is prone to getting them it’s quite likely it will happen again. if he does develope them again the results may be far worse, and really put the 3 original practitioners in legal danger. i really hope for everyone’s sakes it heals up fine and there are no problems, but we should all at least be aware that there could easily be severe legal or health repercussions if everyone starts attemptimg major reconstructive surgeries on people with known health risks.
i do in fact think it’s everyone’s right to do what they want to their own bodies, but i honestly think it would have been more ethical of the artists to tell this man he needed to see a cosmetic or reconstructive surgeon. it sounds like they were just trying to help, and i applaud that, but it would be a real shame if things ended up worse in the end because of their kindness.
as for the money issue, i think people need to keep in mind that any mod might have severe complications and require medical care of some kind. if you can’t afford to provide yourself with this care you might want to think twice about getting the mods.
wow, what a novel. when i saw this entry post i knew some major bickering was about to take place, but at least this is something worthwhile of discussion.
thanks to shannon for posting this, it’s good to see the bad results along with the good. hopefully it will make people very aware that there are always risks to these procedures.
i have to say i’m a bit suprised most people don’t understand what jordan is trying to say. obviously this man has severe problems with keloids, and as far as i know if someone is prone to getting them it’s quite likely it will happen again. if he does develope them again the results may be far worse, and really put the 3 original practitioners in legal danger. i really hope for everyone’s sakes it heals up fine and there are no problems, but we should all at least be aware that there could easily be severe legal or health repercussions if everyone starts attemptimg major reconstructive surgeries on people with known health risks.
i do in fact think it’s everyone’s right to do what they want to their own bodies, but i honestly think it would have been more ethical of the artists to tell this man he needed to see a cosmetic or reconstructive surgeon. it sounds like they were just trying to help, and i applaud that, but it would be a real shame if things ended up worse in the end because of their kindness.
as for the money issue, i think people need to keep in mind that any mod might have severe complications and require medical care of some kind. if you can’t afford to provide yourself with this care you might want to think twice about getting the mods.
OMG!!..OMG OW!!….*gag*….*dry heave*…
OMG!!..OMG OW!!….*gag*….*dry heave*…
Someone, I personally believe that people who believe in supernatural things shouldn’t be allowed to procreate, but that’s my opinion, if he wants to get scars, or get an amputation or whatever, it’s his body and he has the freedom to do whatever he wants with it.
Someone, I personally believe that people who believe in supernatural things shouldn’t be allowed to procreate, but that’s my opinion, if he wants to get scars, or get an amputation or whatever, it’s his body and he has the freedom to do whatever he wants with it.
this should be ended with the following:
“HEY POT THIS IS KETTLE! GUESS WHAT YOU’RE BLACK!”
I’m freshly cut and all i can say is who cares, lets move on…Whats said is said and what’s done is done
this should be ended with the following:
“HEY POT THIS IS KETTLE! GUESS WHAT YOU’RE BLACK!”
I’m freshly cut and all i can say is who cares, lets move on…Whats said is said and what’s done is done
For me, the issue is not this particular procedure, but the lack of uniform standards that arise when there is an unregulated industry.
While it is fun to wave your fist in the air and declare yourself some of sort of freedom fighter for bodmodding, the fact is we live in a civil society ruled by civil laws decided through a legal, democratic process.
The fact is that even if you are completely qualified to perform this procedure, even if you have all the most advanced professional equipment available and have obtained the full consent of all parties, practicing medicine without a license is illegal. And, the reason it is illegal is because most people (these practitioners aside) who hang their shingle as a “practitioner” are less qualified and less fully trained than licensed physicians.
Unlike most procedures detailed here on bme, this procedure was available through normal legal channels. The client could have chosen to get legal medical help, unlike those who desire castrations, subincisions, scrotal splitting and so forth. (If we want those procedures to be legally availble, btw, maybe it is time to start lobbying for changes in the law.)
In choosing to perform this procedure extra-legally, the practitioners risked something going wrong. Yes, something could go wrong in a hospital, but it is less likely. And, if a very poor outcome had occurred, the civil authorities would have no choice but to prosecute. It is quite possible this would then lead to crackdowns on other semi-legal procedures, or even outright banning of other currently legal body modifications. This is not just reactionary scaremongering on my part, it has happened before, in New York City, for example. A hepatitis scare shutdown tattooing in America’s largest city.
The risk being taken was not just taken by the client, who frankly, may or may not have the technical knowledge to give informed consent and make the choice between an extra-legal practitioner and a licensed physician.
The risk was not just taken by the practitioners, who I can only assume were trying to do a good thing, and were willing to risk their own freedom, livelihood and reputations to do so.
No, the risks were also assumed by the entire bodmod community of the jurisdiction where this was performed. This assumption of risk was forced upon them by the practitioners.
The issue in assessing risk is not how did this one case turn out. The issue is, “what if it had gone wrong?” These pictures, shown to the general public on the front pages of Bastien’s local paper, accompanied by news of some (admittedly unlikely) grisly outcome, would almost certainly lead to backlashes and crackdowns in this area. How many more moderate piercers and tattoo artists would then be thrown out of work because three individuals decided that these keloids would be better removed by an unlicensed practitioner.
Wave your fists and storm the barricades all you want, body hackers or mod-revolutionaries or anarcho-artists or whatever you call yourselves this week. Next time you decide to throw a revolution, though, figure out a way to leave me out of it, please.
For me, the issue is not this particular procedure, but the lack of uniform standards that arise when there is an unregulated industry.
While it is fun to wave your fist in the air and declare yourself some of sort of freedom fighter for bodmodding, the fact is we live in a civil society ruled by civil laws decided through a legal, democratic process.
The fact is that even if you are completely qualified to perform this procedure, even if you have all the most advanced professional equipment available and have obtained the full consent of all parties, practicing medicine without a license is illegal. And, the reason it is illegal is because most people (these practitioners aside) who hang their shingle as a “practitioner” are less qualified and less fully trained than licensed physicians.
Unlike most procedures detailed here on bme, this procedure was available through normal legal channels. The client could have chosen to get legal medical help, unlike those who desire castrations, subincisions, scrotal splitting and so forth. (If we want those procedures to be legally availble, btw, maybe it is time to start lobbying for changes in the law.)
In choosing to perform this procedure extra-legally, the practitioners risked something going wrong. Yes, something could go wrong in a hospital, but it is less likely. And, if a very poor outcome had occurred, the civil authorities would have no choice but to prosecute. It is quite possible this would then lead to crackdowns on other semi-legal procedures, or even outright banning of other currently legal body modifications. This is not just reactionary scaremongering on my part, it has happened before, in New York City, for example. A hepatitis scare shutdown tattooing in America’s largest city.
The risk being taken was not just taken by the client, who frankly, may or may not have the technical knowledge to give informed consent and make the choice between an extra-legal practitioner and a licensed physician.
The risk was not just taken by the practitioners, who I can only assume were trying to do a good thing, and were willing to risk their own freedom, livelihood and reputations to do so.
No, the risks were also assumed by the entire bodmod community of the jurisdiction where this was performed. This assumption of risk was forced upon them by the practitioners.
The issue in assessing risk is not how did this one case turn out. The issue is, “what if it had gone wrong?” These pictures, shown to the general public on the front pages of Bastien’s local paper, accompanied by news of some (admittedly unlikely) grisly outcome, would almost certainly lead to backlashes and crackdowns in this area. How many more moderate piercers and tattoo artists would then be thrown out of work because three individuals decided that these keloids would be better removed by an unlicensed practitioner.
Wave your fists and storm the barricades all you want, body hackers or mod-revolutionaries or anarcho-artists or whatever you call yourselves this week. Next time you decide to throw a revolution, though, figure out a way to leave me out of it, please.
Vampy (#217) takes the cake! Excellent points across the board. I declare her the winner! 🙂
Vampy (#217) takes the cake! Excellent points across the board. I declare her the winner! 🙂
Just a couple quick notes:
I find it highly amusing that Deanna referred to her surgical scars as ‘oldschool’ as compared to body modification scars. Last I heard, modern surgery (i.e. her heart surgeries) was, well, modern–a relatively recent invention. On the other hand, scarification and other modifications go back thousands of years, making it far more ‘old school’.
Also, I work in an industry that requires me to speak in my second language (french) about 50% of the time, in relatively technical terms, often about safety issues. On a daily basis I am faced with the difficulty of not being able to express myself as fluently as I would like. However, I know, and my clients understand, that this in no way makes me less capable or knowledgeable–there is simply a language barrier. Besides which, Deanna, your posts are certainly not devoid of grammatical errors, even using what I assume is your first language. Perhaps you should have a more fluent friend read them over before you submit them (I certainly don’t put myself above errors–I’m sure a careful eye could pick out more than a couple in this post alone–my point is not to rush to judgement).
Also, my most recent experience in a hospital was a nightmare of cross-contamination. The doctor did not change his gloves throughout the entire procedure, despite touching another patient who had lost bowel control and sticking his hand INSIDE A GARBAGE CAN. Compare this to my last experience at a piercing studio, where the artist changed his gloves no less than 5 times, even when the things he touched had generally been sanitised prior, if not fully sterilised. But then again, the doctor’s first language wasn’t english…
All this being said, I don’t know if I would have gone to a doctor of a mod artist in Bastien’s situation, but I know I would want the choice. Over-regulation of the industry won’t do anything but push practitioners further underground, as it has in the past, which we can probably all agree isn’t good for anyone.
Freigeist.
Just a couple quick notes:
I find it highly amusing that Deanna referred to her surgical scars as ‘oldschool’ as compared to body modification scars. Last I heard, modern surgery (i.e. her heart surgeries) was, well, modern–a relatively recent invention. On the other hand, scarification and other modifications go back thousands of years, making it far more ‘old school’.
Also, I work in an industry that requires me to speak in my second language (french) about 50% of the time, in relatively technical terms, often about safety issues. On a daily basis I am faced with the difficulty of not being able to express myself as fluently as I would like. However, I know, and my clients understand, that this in no way makes me less capable or knowledgeable–there is simply a language barrier. Besides which, Deanna, your posts are certainly not devoid of grammatical errors, even using what I assume is your first language. Perhaps you should have a more fluent friend read them over before you submit them (I certainly don’t put myself above errors–I’m sure a careful eye could pick out more than a couple in this post alone–my point is not to rush to judgement).
Also, my most recent experience in a hospital was a nightmare of cross-contamination. The doctor did not change his gloves throughout the entire procedure, despite touching another patient who had lost bowel control and sticking his hand INSIDE A GARBAGE CAN. Compare this to my last experience at a piercing studio, where the artist changed his gloves no less than 5 times, even when the things he touched had generally been sanitised prior, if not fully sterilised. But then again, the doctor’s first language wasn’t english…
All this being said, I don’t know if I would have gone to a doctor of a mod artist in Bastien’s situation, but I know I would want the choice. Over-regulation of the industry won’t do anything but push practitioners further underground, as it has in the past, which we can probably all agree isn’t good for anyone.
Freigeist.
ok, its me again
just for explain my first reaction was a little bit angry, cause i was amazed that i found those fotos on modblog without my permission, and that too many people take about shit and what they dont know only for having their glory time, amd their name on.
now for explain how was the procedure, i was not a simple customer when we did it, i planned to spent few days with lukas for another thing amd explain him this kind of problem
then after many days of brainstorming with samppa help, we decided to do this. everything was fucking clear, and quit quick, not a hardcore procedure as it seems for all the gossip, i think they can spend all lost their time on talking on amputee procedure or all other, or other extreme procedure as we can see on the extrem gallery, which those guys doing those kind of things in a non sterile way or sometimes without any knowledge, so dont disclaim what you dont know.
now my scars look fucking great, i really happy about what i got now.
again thanks my friends lukas and samppa (even he dont ask me for the post 🙂
END OF THIS STORY
ok, its me again
just for explain my first reaction was a little bit angry, cause i was amazed that i found those fotos on modblog without my permission, and that too many people take about shit and what they dont know only for having their glory time, amd their name on.
now for explain how was the procedure, i was not a simple customer when we did it, i planned to spent few days with lukas for another thing amd explain him this kind of problem
then after many days of brainstorming with samppa help, we decided to do this. everything was fucking clear, and quit quick, not a hardcore procedure as it seems for all the gossip, i think they can spend all lost their time on talking on amputee procedure or all other, or other extreme procedure as we can see on the extrem gallery, which those guys doing those kind of things in a non sterile way or sometimes without any knowledge, so dont disclaim what you dont know.
now my scars look fucking great, i really happy about what i got now.
again thanks my friends lukas and samppa (even he dont ask me for the post 🙂
END OF THIS STORY
bastien, like i told u already, we don’t need ur permission for it. and it was Lukas who asked me to post them tho. And i think bu were there when we decided to post them. Anyway, can u contact me i have something for u;)
bastien, like i told u already, we don’t need ur permission for it. and it was Lukas who asked me to post them tho. And i think bu were there when we decided to post them. Anyway, can u contact me i have something for u;)
Bastien, I’m very sorry about the mixup on the photos. I’m sure no one intended for that to be a problem for you, and I apologize for any hard feelings that came from that end of it.
I also hope you understand that this conversation and photo set has helped people who are thinking about scarification, as well as people who have similar keloiding problems. All three core people involved deserve thanks for sharing their photos and story (whether you agree with what happened or not, sharing the story is very important so we can all learn from it).
Bastien, I’m very sorry about the mixup on the photos. I’m sure no one intended for that to be a problem for you, and I apologize for any hard feelings that came from that end of it.
I also hope you understand that this conversation and photo set has helped people who are thinking about scarification, as well as people who have similar keloiding problems. All three core people involved deserve thanks for sharing their photos and story (whether you agree with what happened or not, sharing the story is very important so we can all learn from it).
ok, if it can be a help for someone,
whatever, for me, its this procedure who helped me
ok, if it can be a help for someone,
whatever, for me, its this procedure who helped me
Sharing is [s]caring.
Sharing is [s]caring.
Too many repetitions! To add some personal experience:
-I was hospitalized for 6 weeks in the infection ward (because of a doctors misjudement! neraly killed me), and each week someone died on that post! The reason why infections are freequent in hospitals are the poorly performed aseptic procedures and attention to crosscontamination. There’s no other place where (potetially resistant) bacteria is spread so easily.
In the modification scene (including body suspension) there is room for improvement on crosscontamination awereness and aseptic procedures. In any case infections are more likely to be a result of the aftercare, not the procedure.
-The badly performed circumcision I had done in a hospital, by a surgeon (who insulted me for my genital piercings), will be corrected by a modification artist! I will not choose the artist at random, I’m 36 years old and I know what I’m doing. Who’s gonna try to stop me?! Fuck them and their laws! Yes, regulate the mainstreem tattoo and piercing, but to make the official, medical society understand -let alone the politicians- the whole of “our” world is still pretty far down the lane.
-And as a point of trivia, in relation to suggested therapist consultation before getting procedures; I give speaces on the possitive aspects of self inflicted pain to healthcare personell in order to help them understand the importance of it. If it wasen’t taboo in the greater part of our society, more people could enjoy self inflicted/voluntary pain without getting diagnosed as sick!
-And one last thing; I have never heard about a client with complications being rejected/neglected by the artist who performed the procedure. There may be a number of reasons why the client wishes to consult another artist.
Too many repetitions! To add some personal experience:
-I was hospitalized for 6 weeks in the infection ward (because of a doctors misjudement! neraly killed me), and each week someone died on that post! The reason why infections are freequent in hospitals are the poorly performed aseptic procedures and attention to crosscontamination. There’s no other place where (potetially resistant) bacteria is spread so easily.
In the modification scene (including body suspension) there is room for improvement on crosscontamination awereness and aseptic procedures. In any case infections are more likely to be a result of the aftercare, not the procedure.
-The badly performed circumcision I had done in a hospital, by a surgeon (who insulted me for my genital piercings), will be corrected by a modification artist! I will not choose the artist at random, I’m 36 years old and I know what I’m doing. Who’s gonna try to stop me?! Fuck them and their laws! Yes, regulate the mainstreem tattoo and piercing, but to make the official, medical society understand -let alone the politicians- the whole of “our” world is still pretty far down the lane.
-And as a point of trivia, in relation to suggested therapist consultation before getting procedures; I give speaces on the possitive aspects of self inflicted pain to healthcare personell in order to help them understand the importance of it. If it wasen’t taboo in the greater part of our society, more people could enjoy self inflicted/voluntary pain without getting diagnosed as sick!
-And one last thing; I have never heard about a client with complications being rejected/neglected by the artist who performed the procedure. There may be a number of reasons why the client wishes to consult another artist.
“for young kids, I would encourage it before they thought of getting a surgical procedure from someone who is not a doctor” … come on . what about people who get large boops or nose job by “licenced doctor”, sometimes even before they got 18 ?!
anyway . i says what I add to say , and in english 😉 . thanks shannon to tel that I could send my messages in french, but I think my english is getting much better than the first time we met … and I need to work a bit more on it .
as for the photos, nothing wrong , just of course that maybe we should have say something to bastien before … sorry about that . but yes I told samppa that he could send it because the procedure was pretty interesting .
Im just surprise to see so many people ready to put us in jail, avoid us procreation (to late !) or acting like little virgin girls going under their mother (america?!) dress to try to get some prottection ! poor baby . whaow , still a lot a job to do before see a bit of evolution coming from who is still so close from apes . Im sorry to hurting you babys, but look at what is going on aorund you about the body and is (re)volution, this is going to be just the begining !
“for young kids, I would encourage it before they thought of getting a surgical procedure from someone who is not a doctor” … come on . what about people who get large boops or nose job by “licenced doctor”, sometimes even before they got 18 ?!
anyway . i says what I add to say , and in english 😉 . thanks shannon to tel that I could send my messages in french, but I think my english is getting much better than the first time we met … and I need to work a bit more on it .
as for the photos, nothing wrong , just of course that maybe we should have say something to bastien before … sorry about that . but yes I told samppa that he could send it because the procedure was pretty interesting .
Im just surprise to see so many people ready to put us in jail, avoid us procreation (to late !) or acting like little virgin girls going under their mother (america?!) dress to try to get some prottection ! poor baby . whaow , still a lot a job to do before see a bit of evolution coming from who is still so close from apes . Im sorry to hurting you babys, but look at what is going on aorund you about the body and is (re)volution, this is going to be just the begining !
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/health/5140090.stm
just because I think it s a good news !
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/health/5140090.stm
just because I think it s a good news !
Wow, this thread has gone in quite a few different directions. But I must say I’m happy to have read posts from Lukas, Sammpa and Bastien because they were the ones who were actually there.
Wow, this thread has gone in quite a few different directions. But I must say I’m happy to have read posts from Lukas, Sammpa and Bastien because they were the ones who were actually there.
That just seems a bit extreme for mod artists to do. It really falls into medical territory and I’m worried about it sending the wrong message. When are practitioners going to learn that it’s one thing to DO these mods, but another to publicize it. Oh well. I’m sure the fall out will make for interesting fodder.
That just seems a bit extreme for mod artists to do. It really falls into medical territory and I’m worried about it sending the wrong message. When are practitioners going to learn that it’s one thing to DO these mods, but another to publicize it. Oh well. I’m sure the fall out will make for interesting fodder.
i would like to send pics of interesting procedures on bme in the future, but i don’t think that i bother if feedback is this kinda shit. instead of those, i’m gonna start sending pics of standard navel piercing only. is that what u ppl want?That body modification artists stop sending pics of their work? Kill bme and body modification industry? and watching pics only navel piercing? do u think that someone can learn anything then? And u life will be fucking boring…no real life and even virtual life is dead, only pics of navel piercing day after day, no virtual “doctors” anymore…sounds pretty shit, eh? And don’t Shannon understand me wrong, u do great work, but ppl are shit. in finland we say “helmiä sioille”
i would like to send pics of interesting procedures on bme in the future, but i don’t think that i bother if feedback is this kinda shit. instead of those, i’m gonna start sending pics of standard navel piercing only. is that what u ppl want?That body modification artists stop sending pics of their work? Kill bme and body modification industry? and watching pics only navel piercing? do u think that someone can learn anything then? And u life will be fucking boring…no real life and even virtual life is dead, only pics of navel piercing day after day, no virtual “doctors” anymore…sounds pretty shit, eh? And don’t Shannon understand me wrong, u do great work, but ppl are shit. in finland we say “helmiä sioille”
and Shawn, u’ve done much more extreme work than this procedure…
and to all of you: what makes this procedure so fucking extreme and hardcore? u haven’t seen fat tissue before? or 60 stitches in same? at least you have seen more blood tho?
reality check please
and Shawn, u’ve done much more extreme work than this procedure…
and to all of you: what makes this procedure so fucking extreme and hardcore? u haven’t seen fat tissue before? or 60 stitches in same? at least you have seen more blood tho?
reality check please
I have to say that I met Bastien in London and the results of the work is pretty neat. Of course, it will leave a scar, but smaller than the old ones, and again, there’s many factors that influence the way a scar heals, obviously, it went too deeply, so the complication was the thickness of each cut. On the other hand, as you should know, keloids could get bigger when they are done on the torso, and when you make a scar you have to always check if it will work properly to the body shape and skin disposition to avoid future complications. I don’t have as much experience in scarification work, as Lukas, Samppa, Ryan, and other artists but I think I have learnt plenty about how skin heals.
I have to say that I met Bastien in London and the results of the work is pretty neat. Of course, it will leave a scar, but smaller than the old ones, and again, there’s many factors that influence the way a scar heals, obviously, it went too deeply, so the complication was the thickness of each cut. On the other hand, as you should know, keloids could get bigger when they are done on the torso, and when you make a scar you have to always check if it will work properly to the body shape and skin disposition to avoid future complications. I don’t have as much experience in scarification work, as Lukas, Samppa, Ryan, and other artists but I think I have learnt plenty about how skin heals.
Samppa: If you and other practitioners are going to do heavy, dangerous procedures (not just referring to this one specifically), you can’t expect everybody to just kiss your ass and tell you everything is great every single time.
A lot of this stuff is controversial, and you’re going to need a much thicker skin and not be so defensive just because some people have criticisms.
Samppa: If you and other practitioners are going to do heavy, dangerous procedures (not just referring to this one specifically), you can’t expect everybody to just kiss your ass and tell you everything is great every single time.
A lot of this stuff is controversial, and you’re going to need a much thicker skin and not be so defensive just because some people have criticisms.
Sigh. I spent a good hour trying to decide whether to post this, because it follows a previous poster in veering off topic, but I just can’t in good conscience let some of the insults lobbed go unchalleneged.
Here goes:
“Im just surprise to see so many people ready… acting like little virgin girls going under their mother (america?!) dress to try to get some prottection ! poor baby . whaow , still a lot a job to do before see a bit of evolution coming from who is still so close from apes .” – lukas zpira, post 247
Okay, first I will admit that the meaning of this post was not very clear to me, so I will respond as I understand it. If I am mistaken, please let me know. Not everyone here has maintained a tone of cordial debate, but this seems to be a bit over the top. Or maybe it was meant to be polite debate, and somehow it got muddled in translation from Finnish into English.
Therefore, understanding that English is not your first language I would, in a friendly way, like to point out that these statements sound much harsher than I imagine you meant them to sound.
1. Given the different racial and demographic composition of America compared to Finland, your statement could be misconstrued as racist. In English, the word “ape” is sometimes used in a racially charged way to refer to a person of sub-Saharan African descent. So, if I understand you to have said Americans (in a nation with many more blacks than Finland) are closer to apes, then surely you were unaware of the racist connotations of your statement.
2. Not to mention sexist connotations in implying that girls are weak and women are cowardly.
3. As for the “American” reference, well, yeah, I am an American, as are many people on this board (on both sides of this issue). I do not always agree with everything my fellow Americans do, I did not vote for the current President, and in fact I actively campaigned against him. The actions and history of a nation do not always reflect the general good-will of the citizens of that nation.
So, I will take your use of the word “America” as just yet another example of the outpouring of insults, prophanity and vitriol present in most of your posts in this discussion. It seems when you find a way to insult one of us who disagrees with you, you do so, figuring that if you scream loudly enough, using enough insults, that it will somehow advance your argument. I understand that anti-Americanism is quite chic right now because of America’s foreign policy, but I would remind you that just as not every women is cowardly and not every girl is weak, not every American is boorish and imperialistic.
Given that you have introduced attacks on nationality into this discussion and given the current climate of anti-Americanism, you seem to think “American” is some sort of curseword or insult. Since you seem to think that each individual citizen of a nation can be painted with the same broad brush as all their fellow citizens, maybe you can explain something I never understood. While the current American administration certainly has some problems handling foreign relations, I was never real clear about which side the oh so high-mindedly democratic and pure Finland took in WWII?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:WWII.png
Sigh. I spent a good hour trying to decide whether to post this, because it follows a previous poster in veering off topic, but I just can’t in good conscience let some of the insults lobbed go unchalleneged.
Here goes:
“Im just surprise to see so many people ready… acting like little virgin girls going under their mother (america?!) dress to try to get some prottection ! poor baby . whaow , still a lot a job to do before see a bit of evolution coming from who is still so close from apes .” – lukas zpira, post 247
Okay, first I will admit that the meaning of this post was not very clear to me, so I will respond as I understand it. If I am mistaken, please let me know. Not everyone here has maintained a tone of cordial debate, but this seems to be a bit over the top. Or maybe it was meant to be polite debate, and somehow it got muddled in translation from Finnish into English.
Therefore, understanding that English is not your first language I would, in a friendly way, like to point out that these statements sound much harsher than I imagine you meant them to sound.
1. Given the different racial and demographic composition of America compared to Finland, your statement could be misconstrued as racist. In English, the word “ape” is sometimes used in a racially charged way to refer to a person of sub-Saharan African descent. So, if I understand you to have said Americans (in a nation with many more blacks than Finland) are closer to apes, then surely you were unaware of the racist connotations of your statement.
2. Not to mention sexist connotations in implying that girls are weak and women are cowardly.
3. As for the “American” reference, well, yeah, I am an American, as are many people on this board (on both sides of this issue). I do not always agree with everything my fellow Americans do, I did not vote for the current President, and in fact I actively campaigned against him. The actions and history of a nation do not always reflect the general good-will of the citizens of that nation.
So, I will take your use of the word “America” as just yet another example of the outpouring of insults, prophanity and vitriol present in most of your posts in this discussion. It seems when you find a way to insult one of us who disagrees with you, you do so, figuring that if you scream loudly enough, using enough insults, that it will somehow advance your argument. I understand that anti-Americanism is quite chic right now because of America’s foreign policy, but I would remind you that just as not every women is cowardly and not every girl is weak, not every American is boorish and imperialistic.
Given that you have introduced attacks on nationality into this discussion and given the current climate of anti-Americanism, you seem to think “American” is some sort of curseword or insult. Since you seem to think that each individual citizen of a nation can be painted with the same broad brush as all their fellow citizens, maybe you can explain something I never understood. While the current American administration certainly has some problems handling foreign relations, I was never real clear about which side the oh so high-mindedly democratic and pure Finland took in WWII?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:WWII.png
I think it shouldn’t be talked about nationalities and what country did what, because it would never end, in the same way a person says that Finland had no clear side in the WWII one could say that the US even sent an ambassador to Vichy France. Personally I think this is about a procedure, not about foreign policies of countries.
I think it shouldn’t be talked about nationalities and what country did what, because it would never end, in the same way a person says that Finland had no clear side in the WWII one could say that the US even sent an ambassador to Vichy France. Personally I think this is about a procedure, not about foreign policies of countries.
i wonder if anyone’s professional opinion of samppa has changed? not due to this procedure (which i agree boils down to just being a pretty hardcore large scale skin removal) but because of his inability to reply to people’s logical queries without using “fuck” every other word? no matter what your first language is, i guess “fuck” is the universal adjective/noun/verb 😉
i wonder if anyone’s professional opinion of samppa has changed? not due to this procedure (which i agree boils down to just being a pretty hardcore large scale skin removal) but because of his inability to reply to people’s logical queries without using “fuck” every other word? no matter what your first language is, i guess “fuck” is the universal adjective/noun/verb 😉
I hate to point this out after you have typed all that out, but i’m pretty sure Lukas is not from Finland. Someone correct me if i’m wrong.
I don’t understand why everybody (on both sides of the debate) is getting so up in arms. People against it need to move on, it was bastiens choice, and what is right for you, may not be right for him. And people who are for it should also try to move on, people are going to have opposing opinions, and sometimes they might express them in a less than nice way but theres not point in getting yourself all upset about it.
I hate to point this out after you have typed all that out, but i’m pretty sure Lukas is not from Finland. Someone correct me if i’m wrong.
I don’t understand why everybody (on both sides of the debate) is getting so up in arms. People against it need to move on, it was bastiens choice, and what is right for you, may not be right for him. And people who are for it should also try to move on, people are going to have opposing opinions, and sometimes they might express them in a less than nice way but theres not point in getting yourself all upset about it.
lukas zpira is french, btw. samppa is finnish.
lukas zpira is french, btw. samppa is finnish.
lukas hails from france…a nation of people that are hated almost as much as americans. 😉
lukas hails from france…a nation of people that are hated almost as much as americans. 😉
Nosimplehiway: Being half American and half European I think I can break down for you Lukas post.
1. He is not using “ape” as you would in the States. That derrogortory term is not used in Europe for people of sub-Saharan African descent. That is exclusive to racist America. The way it is utilized in Europe is to indicate poorly evolutionized homo sapiens. As in Darwinism, primitive man or ape. Hence no racial slur.
2. Nowhere did I read anything implying that girls are weak or women cowardly. He used virgin girl hiding behind her mother’s dress as a metaphor for a young naive scared child. Or in a more simple term A Big Fucking Wuss. There is no need to put words into his mouth or make up hidden meanings to what you think is there.
3. His American reference, as I understood the thread was actually referring to previous comments from Deanne. Post 173 – THAT IS RACIST!
BTW – Anti-Americanism has always existed. It is not a fashion trend of the current moment.
Regarding WWII, how about the Native American Indians? Now and then? Blacks? Now and Then.
I was not going to bother posting in this thread, mainly because as Samppa (according to mimibeth) I was saying FUCK everyother word as well. (as in: Fucking idiots. Fucking morons. etc.) But then decided to post after reading what you wrote. You may write very well and twist words and make it more difficult for them to express themselves. And that is just wrong.
Nosimplehiway: Being half American and half European I think I can break down for you Lukas post.
1. He is not using “ape” as you would in the States. That derrogortory term is not used in Europe for people of sub-Saharan African descent. That is exclusive to racist America. The way it is utilized in Europe is to indicate poorly evolutionized homo sapiens. As in Darwinism, primitive man or ape. Hence no racial slur.
2. Nowhere did I read anything implying that girls are weak or women cowardly. He used virgin girl hiding behind her mother’s dress as a metaphor for a young naive scared child. Or in a more simple term A Big Fucking Wuss. There is no need to put words into his mouth or make up hidden meanings to what you think is there.
3. His American reference, as I understood the thread was actually referring to previous comments from Deanne. Post 173 – THAT IS RACIST!
BTW – Anti-Americanism has always existed. It is not a fashion trend of the current moment.
Regarding WWII, how about the Native American Indians? Now and then? Blacks? Now and Then.
I was not going to bother posting in this thread, mainly because as Samppa (according to mimibeth) I was saying FUCK everyother word as well. (as in: Fucking idiots. Fucking morons. etc.) But then decided to post after reading what you wrote. You may write very well and twist words and make it more difficult for them to express themselves. And that is just wrong.
Since when french are hated?
“mimibeth”, I suppose the best way to avoid those “fuck” is to respect the work of those artists but anyway, I didn’t read lots of fuck here.
About this work, those photos show something really hardcore but it wasn’t so hardcore, and Samppa and Lukas did their work as they are used to do it, seriously.
But I really think that the only important thing in this story is that Bastien is happy, so what’s your problem?
Please, let good artists do their work, and open your minds, or else , BME is not a website made for you…
Since when french are hated?
“mimibeth”, I suppose the best way to avoid those “fuck” is to respect the work of those artists but anyway, I didn’t read lots of fuck here.
About this work, those photos show something really hardcore but it wasn’t so hardcore, and Samppa and Lukas did their work as they are used to do it, seriously.
But I really think that the only important thing in this story is that Bastien is happy, so what’s your problem?
Please, let good artists do their work, and open your minds, or else , BME is not a website made for you…
why is it that in any heated debate, regardless of the main subject, SOMEONE (and sorry to generalise, but it IS an american 99% of the time) has to throw the anti-american/racism/discrimination hat into the ring?
get over yourselves!
re:overuse of the word ‘fuck’. ever watch an episode of the sopranos? the F word is about as verbally harmful as ‘kitten’ anymore.
and i am pretty confident that lukas didn’t mean anything racist in the term ‘ape’, considering at this moment he is in sub saharan africa.
why is it that in any heated debate, regardless of the main subject, SOMEONE (and sorry to generalise, but it IS an american 99% of the time) has to throw the anti-american/racism/discrimination hat into the ring?
get over yourselves!
re:overuse of the word ‘fuck’. ever watch an episode of the sopranos? the F word is about as verbally harmful as ‘kitten’ anymore.
and i am pretty confident that lukas didn’t mean anything racist in the term ‘ape’, considering at this moment he is in sub saharan africa.
I guess sadhaka has answered for me . thanks . racist ?! certainly not . that a really american attitude to describe some people under the name of ‘ape’ … americans are racist , im not .
anti american ? maybe a bit . but man , you deserve it , no ?! you (americans) think that you can run the world and that the world is limited to america ! “follow or die” can be a good slogan …
criticase people because they dont speak perfectly your language it s alerady a bit racist isnt it ? at least we try to comunicate with you .
and how stupid is it when people talk about regulating body modification . regulation where ?! is the bodmod community limited to us ? and even , in this country it is not even legal to get a blow job in some states ! do americans really never give/receive blow jobs ?! how funny is this . how stupid are the comment of some people who want to put me in jail . are you on bme as a spy helping some people to create a guantanamo prison for bodmod practitioner ?!
I haven’t sent any pictures in almost one year to bme because I was tired of the different issues some artist had because of their work. and I probably wont anymore. with samppa we decided to send these pictures because we thought that was an interesting thing to talk about . the procedure was difficult to do, but we handled it correctly and in what I think is a pretty nice job . we didnt want to be lynched like in old time america.
I hope if one day Im going to jail because of what Im doing for this community I will get more support than this .
but it is time to go really back underground if I want to keep myself safe …
so now , I will use the word fuck , just to say “fuck you”, fuck you jordan and “friends”. just wait a couple of years . you will grow up a bit , and we will be ready to talk about all of that .
(cyka, who’s first language is also not english, corrected my spelling and grammar)
I guess sadhaka has answered for me . thanks . racist ?! certainly not . that a really american attitude to describe some people under the name of ‘ape’ … americans are racist , im not .
anti american ? maybe a bit . but man , you deserve it , no ?! you (americans) think that you can run the world and that the world is limited to america ! “follow or die” can be a good slogan …
criticase people because they dont speak perfectly your language it s alerady a bit racist isnt it ? at least we try to comunicate with you .
and how stupid is it when people talk about regulating body modification . regulation where ?! is the bodmod community limited to us ? and even , in this country it is not even legal to get a blow job in some states ! do americans really never give/receive blow jobs ?! how funny is this . how stupid are the comment of some people who want to put me in jail . are you on bme as a spy helping some people to create a guantanamo prison for bodmod practitioner ?!
I haven’t sent any pictures in almost one year to bme because I was tired of the different issues some artist had because of their work. and I probably wont anymore. with samppa we decided to send these pictures because we thought that was an interesting thing to talk about . the procedure was difficult to do, but we handled it correctly and in what I think is a pretty nice job . we didnt want to be lynched like in old time america.
I hope if one day Im going to jail because of what Im doing for this community I will get more support than this .
but it is time to go really back underground if I want to keep myself safe …
so now , I will use the word fuck , just to say “fuck you”, fuck you jordan and “friends”. just wait a couple of years . you will grow up a bit , and we will be ready to talk about all of that .
(cyka, who’s first language is also not english, corrected my spelling and grammar)
I wasn’t going to bother posting on here as it seems that every post turns into an arguement, but i felt that as it is my right to speak freely…i should do so.
With regards to the topic of removal of those keloids…
As some have pointed out already, it was a large scale skin removal which was done between 3 people (the client Bastien and practitioners Samppa and Lukas), mods much more dangerous than this are being done and posted daily in the extreme sections of the bme website so it hasn’t shocked me in any way shape or form. The only thing that shocks me is that the people in the extreme section who remove limbs and do various other mods that i personally would never consider…dont get half as much shit as that has been posted on this page.
It seems like Bastien, after being in long talks with Samppa and Lukas, was more than 110% sure that he was going ahead with it fully knowning of the risks and healing problems that could then follow. He decided himself to get this proceedure done by samppa and Lukas that is HIS choice, not a forced one either.
I can fully understand where some people come from with regards to the place and way that this proceedure was undertaken but let us remember that there were much worse operations undertaken in the fields of war and in many other countries…to the point that many of those would not be anywhere near as sterile as this one.
The one thing that annoys me here is that this is supposed to be a community of like minded people who want to further bodymodification but it has turned into a torrent of abuse and small mindedness. The problem i see here is that someone will end up taking a full on offence to everything that has been posted and will end up passing this info into the wrong hands. This will later cause legislations to be considered at which point the vast majority of registered plastic surgeons and such, will say no to doing on the grounds of mental stability of thier clients and then where will things be????
Back to the underground and with even greater risks!!
I’ve seen more new people coming into the body mod industry over the past few years than there has been before, the problem now is that the people will go underground, information will not be passed on and more n more mistakes will come and harm the industry.
I know it seems like a down view on things but thats the likely outcome of this if it does get into the wrong hands.
There’s a lot of people here that are scared about things they do not understand and that shines through in some of the posts. I would not go to the dentist to get my transdermals as it’s not his field….samppa and lukas are professionals in the body modification community/industry/trade that are used to doing these sorts of proceedures, be they scarification, skin removal or otherwise….i dont feel that they would have done this if they felt it was beyond thier means, the client was happy and as far as it seems, is still very happy and thats all that matters. As long as bastien does what is required to look after these new scars then thats the main thing!!! Aftercare can and will make a big difference.
As for the slagging off of everyone’s country and language/literary skills…. firstly i cant spell for shit and i live in the country that followed bush to war under false pretences only to find it turning into a money hungry bloodbath of which it never should have been.
This debate could go on for ever but the fact of the matter is, we are all here and we are all on this site for one reason, and that is to build a solid community that can pass information back and forth to help the next person and so on so forth.
Anyhows, i’ve said enough now i think so i’ll head off to work…ciao.
I wasn’t going to bother posting on here as it seems that every post turns into an arguement, but i felt that as it is my right to speak freely…i should do so.
With regards to the topic of removal of those keloids…
As some have pointed out already, it was a large scale skin removal which was done between 3 people (the client Bastien and practitioners Samppa and Lukas), mods much more dangerous than this are being done and posted daily in the extreme sections of the bme website so it hasn’t shocked me in any way shape or form. The only thing that shocks me is that the people in the extreme section who remove limbs and do various other mods that i personally would never consider…dont get half as much shit as that has been posted on this page.
It seems like Bastien, after being in long talks with Samppa and Lukas, was more than 110% sure that he was going ahead with it fully knowning of the risks and healing problems that could then follow. He decided himself to get this proceedure done by samppa and Lukas that is HIS choice, not a forced one either.
I can fully understand where some people come from with regards to the place and way that this proceedure was undertaken but let us remember that there were much worse operations undertaken in the fields of war and in many other countries…to the point that many of those would not be anywhere near as sterile as this one.
The one thing that annoys me here is that this is supposed to be a community of like minded people who want to further bodymodification but it has turned into a torrent of abuse and small mindedness. The problem i see here is that someone will end up taking a full on offence to everything that has been posted and will end up passing this info into the wrong hands. This will later cause legislations to be considered at which point the vast majority of registered plastic surgeons and such, will say no to doing on the grounds of mental stability of thier clients and then where will things be????
Back to the underground and with even greater risks!!
I’ve seen more new people coming into the body mod industry over the past few years than there has been before, the problem now is that the people will go underground, information will not be passed on and more n more mistakes will come and harm the industry.
I know it seems like a down view on things but thats the likely outcome of this if it does get into the wrong hands.
There’s a lot of people here that are scared about things they do not understand and that shines through in some of the posts. I would not go to the dentist to get my transdermals as it’s not his field….samppa and lukas are professionals in the body modification community/industry/trade that are used to doing these sorts of proceedures, be they scarification, skin removal or otherwise….i dont feel that they would have done this if they felt it was beyond thier means, the client was happy and as far as it seems, is still very happy and thats all that matters. As long as bastien does what is required to look after these new scars then thats the main thing!!! Aftercare can and will make a big difference.
As for the slagging off of everyone’s country and language/literary skills…. firstly i cant spell for shit and i live in the country that followed bush to war under false pretences only to find it turning into a money hungry bloodbath of which it never should have been.
This debate could go on for ever but the fact of the matter is, we are all here and we are all on this site for one reason, and that is to build a solid community that can pass information back and forth to help the next person and so on so forth.
Anyhows, i’ve said enough now i think so i’ll head off to work…ciao.
Lukas, I’m American and I certainly don’t think that i can run the world or that the world is limited to America, but then again I wouldn’t call myself a typical American nor do I live in America right now.
After reading this debate all the way until the end, it has really made me think about my thoughts of body modification. I don’t think that its anyone’s rights to say that Lukas and Samppa were wrong in what they did. Obviously, Bastien consented and benefited from the procedure.
Since when did we start imposing the laws of society on the body modification community which has for so long existed outside of the realms of societal control? The truth is folks that doctors don’t belong on the pedestal that we put them on. They deserve as much criticism and investigation as practioners. I have a chronic disease that requires me to be in close contact with doctors and I have never had a good experience with any of them. They have overmedicated me without a second thought (which caused severe problems in the end) and shown me absolutely no sympathy or concern for my well-being.
Body modification is an individual’s choice and as such an individual’s responsibility. It is the individual’s responsiblity to find a safe and talented artist or practicioner. That is why Shannon posted the pictures, so we could see the negative consequences of some procedures and be able to make a knowledgable decision.
Most doctors have no experience in many of the procedures in the body modification community and they certainly do not understand the mentality behind it. There is simply no way that any society could control and regulate body modification practices, let alone make them legal. Is that how you want to exress you body creatively and artistically: through a regulated system? Body modification outside the hospital is going to happen. Doctors are too expensive, critical, insensitive, and naive about body modification.
Lukas, I’m American and I certainly don’t think that i can run the world or that the world is limited to America, but then again I wouldn’t call myself a typical American nor do I live in America right now.
After reading this debate all the way until the end, it has really made me think about my thoughts of body modification. I don’t think that its anyone’s rights to say that Lukas and Samppa were wrong in what they did. Obviously, Bastien consented and benefited from the procedure.
Since when did we start imposing the laws of society on the body modification community which has for so long existed outside of the realms of societal control? The truth is folks that doctors don’t belong on the pedestal that we put them on. They deserve as much criticism and investigation as practioners. I have a chronic disease that requires me to be in close contact with doctors and I have never had a good experience with any of them. They have overmedicated me without a second thought (which caused severe problems in the end) and shown me absolutely no sympathy or concern for my well-being.
Body modification is an individual’s choice and as such an individual’s responsibility. It is the individual’s responsiblity to find a safe and talented artist or practicioner. That is why Shannon posted the pictures, so we could see the negative consequences of some procedures and be able to make a knowledgable decision.
Most doctors have no experience in many of the procedures in the body modification community and they certainly do not understand the mentality behind it. There is simply no way that any society could control and regulate body modification practices, let alone make them legal. Is that how you want to exress you body creatively and artistically: through a regulated system? Body modification outside the hospital is going to happen. Doctors are too expensive, critical, insensitive, and naive about body modification.
i watched this discussion for a while and it´s scaring to see how this discussion spreads – in the beginning it was about the keloid removal and then the discussion started if samppa and lukas are legally allowed to do perform such an procedure and now everyone is bitching on each other about rasism and other things.
the whole discussion seems to be off topic now
for me it was a decission of bastien – he decided who should do the initial scarification work and he decided who should solve the problem he got from it – i don´t care about the fact that it wasn´t legal to do it or not, as a professional piercer i perform everyday illegal things in my shop and every other piercer is doing so when they help customers with their piercing problems – it´s not their business to treat infections caused by piercing but every piercing does and nobody cares. so i don´t see any problem with the procedure samppa and lukas did, they didn´t force the guy to come to them and get it done, it was his free will.
and sorry for the mistakes, english is also not my first language
i watched this discussion for a while and it´s scaring to see how this discussion spreads – in the beginning it was about the keloid removal and then the discussion started if samppa and lukas are legally allowed to do perform such an procedure and now everyone is bitching on each other about rasism and other things.
the whole discussion seems to be off topic now
for me it was a decission of bastien – he decided who should do the initial scarification work and he decided who should solve the problem he got from it – i don´t care about the fact that it wasn´t legal to do it or not, as a professional piercer i perform everyday illegal things in my shop and every other piercer is doing so when they help customers with their piercing problems – it´s not their business to treat infections caused by piercing but every piercing does and nobody cares. so i don´t see any problem with the procedure samppa and lukas did, they didn´t force the guy to come to them and get it done, it was his free will.
and sorry for the mistakes, english is also not my first language
Lukas: The irony in you telling me to fuck off and grow up is almost too much to handle. I’m wasting my energy here. Best of luck.
Lukas: The irony in you telling me to fuck off and grow up is almost too much to handle. I’m wasting my energy here. Best of luck.
“Given that you have introduced attacks on nationality into this discussion and given the current climate of anti-Americanism, you seem to think âAmericanâ? is some sort of curseword or insult. Since you seem to think that each individual citizen of a nation can be painted with the same broad brush as all their fellow citizens, maybe you can explain something I never understood. While the current American administration certainly has some problems handling foreign relations, I was never real clear about which side the oh so high-mindedly democratic and pure Finland took in WWII?”
what the fuck is all this!
“Given that you have introduced attacks on nationality into this discussion and given the current climate of anti-Americanism, you seem to think âAmericanâ? is some sort of curseword or insult. Since you seem to think that each individual citizen of a nation can be painted with the same broad brush as all their fellow citizens, maybe you can explain something I never understood. While the current American administration certainly has some problems handling foreign relations, I was never real clear about which side the oh so high-mindedly democratic and pure Finland took in WWII?”
what the fuck is all this!
“publicly we will continue our work in editing, radio, music, press, etc… but privately, we will create something else, something to be shared freely but not consumed passively, something that ca be openly debated without ever being understood by the agents of alienation, something that has absolutely no marketable value but is precious nonetheless, something occult yet perfectly integrated in our daily lives.”
“publicly we will continue our work in editing, radio, music, press, etc… but privately, we will create something else, something to be shared freely but not consumed passively, something that ca be openly debated without ever being understood by the agents of alienation, something that has absolutely no marketable value but is precious nonetheless, something occult yet perfectly integrated in our daily lives.”
“And all I can say is, if even one person has reconsidered going to a body modification artist for surgery, then my opinion is completely valid. ”
As soon as I can find one to do my reconstruction for my lobe…I’de rather have someone who knows about what they are working on doing it than a plastic surgeon who could care less
“And all I can say is, if even one person has reconsidered going to a body modification artist for surgery, then my opinion is completely valid. ”
As soon as I can find one to do my reconstruction for my lobe…I’de rather have someone who knows about what they are working on doing it than a plastic surgeon who could care less
Alright, this is getting silly. Everyone is just getting to the point of attacking each other and where they are from. Not only is it getting away from the point of this article, but it is extrememly rude. STOP ASSUMING THINGS ABOUT PEOPLE FROM A SPECIFIC COUNTRY!! People who aren’t entirely fluent in ENglish are no less intelligent, and as an American, I AM NOT RACIST! I’m a fucking social worker for cryin’ out loud! Anywho, all I have to say is this. To Sammpa and Lukas- I respect what you guys have done in an attempt to help this man. Kudos to you. You turned mutilation into modification, which is what our community is about. And you did it to the best of your ability. Noone on here who is bitching about it was there, so they really should just get off of their high horses. People are allowed to make personal choices, and this was his. End of story. Now go do something productive instead of spin your wheels on here.
Alright, this is getting silly. Everyone is just getting to the point of attacking each other and where they are from. Not only is it getting away from the point of this article, but it is extrememly rude. STOP ASSUMING THINGS ABOUT PEOPLE FROM A SPECIFIC COUNTRY!! People who aren’t entirely fluent in ENglish are no less intelligent, and as an American, I AM NOT RACIST! I’m a fucking social worker for cryin’ out loud! Anywho, all I have to say is this. To Sammpa and Lukas- I respect what you guys have done in an attempt to help this man. Kudos to you. You turned mutilation into modification, which is what our community is about. And you did it to the best of your ability. Noone on here who is bitching about it was there, so they really should just get off of their high horses. People are allowed to make personal choices, and this was his. End of story. Now go do something productive instead of spin your wheels on here.
Deanna,
Name dropping will not serve the purpose you’re expecting it to after stating what you have.
Like I said earlier. This topic of conversation is foreign to you.
Your views on numerous matters have been noted.
– Though it’s nice to openly post on modblog without feeling at all censored (Shannon is very good about recognizing each and every voice) it is true that the point has somewhere been lost and overlooked a long time ago.
I sincerely hope to see more entries like this in the future. Hopefull most can get to more solid ground in understanding.
Sometimes we all need to listen to be heard.
Deanna,
Name dropping will not serve the purpose you’re expecting it to after stating what you have.
Like I said earlier. This topic of conversation is foreign to you.
Your views on numerous matters have been noted.
– Though it’s nice to openly post on modblog without feeling at all censored (Shannon is very good about recognizing each and every voice) it is true that the point has somewhere been lost and overlooked a long time ago.
I sincerely hope to see more entries like this in the future. Hopefull most can get to more solid ground in understanding.
Sometimes we all need to listen to be heard.
Samppa – I hope you’ll keep sending in interesting sets like this. If you’d like I can keep them behind a members wall where by-and-large people who don’t understand what they’re seeing and how complex or not-complex the procedure is won’t give you grief over it (I’ve actually considered splitting ModBlog into three pieces; a members blog, a BME/Girls/Boys blog, and a mainstream mods blog). However, I think there’s a lot of value in publicly posting it, even if sometimes some people are asses about it. I strongly believe that this post has helped a lot of people.
Samppa – I hope you’ll keep sending in interesting sets like this. If you’d like I can keep them behind a members wall where by-and-large people who don’t understand what they’re seeing and how complex or not-complex the procedure is won’t give you grief over it (I’ve actually considered splitting ModBlog into three pieces; a members blog, a BME/Girls/Boys blog, and a mainstream mods blog). However, I think there’s a lot of value in publicly posting it, even if sometimes some people are asses about it. I strongly believe that this post has helped a lot of people.
thats a pretty serious procedure there. somthig like that should be done in day surgery, possibly needing drainage tubes
thats a pretty serious procedure there. somthig like that should be done in day surgery, possibly needing drainage tubes
First off, sorry I got Lukas and Samppa’s nationalities mixed up. I apologize to both Lukas and Samppa individually and to their nations collectively, an dplease replace the word “Finland” with the word “France” in my previous post. 🙂
My point though, in responding to the references already made about nationality, was that no nation in the world is without something about which they can and should feel guilty. Every citizen, everywhere could be yelled at for their national origin. “You’re from Ukraine/Bolivia/New Zealand, you obviously don’t know what you’re talking out”.
This sort of collective guilt has no place in a reasoned debate.
I did not originally raise the attacks on any person’s nationality, but I am not going to sit by and watch my own nationality be disparaged without rebuttal.
I pointed out that some people might take “ape” as racist, because I wanted them to know they were stumbling into some very inflammatory vernacular in English. Admittedly, it seems as if that might please them.
I was quite happy at first, to see the practitioners themselves had joined the discussion, but what would you call many of Samppa and Lukas’s responses other than yelling. This thread was relatively polite for an online debate, though quite strident, until they introduced such gems of reasoned debate as:
fucking jesus!!!! are u so fucking idiot that u really thinking that i cutting in english???!!!!!
deanna: i donât give a shit about ur respect
I give free advice to all online doctors
jordan: even if we were charging money, it wouldnât be your fucking business
On BME there are far more accepting, supportive people than a bunch of negative assholes
bastien, like i told u already, we donât need ur permission for it (pointing out to the client that they own the photos, which is true, since they got a release from him at the time of the procedure)
but ppl are shit. in finland we say âhelmiä sioilleâ?
who is going to make the regulation about body mods ? george buch governement ?! sorry Im laffing . are americans going to send some troops to arrest bodmods artist in other country ?! come on baby , think a bit by yourself and stop whatching cnn , ok ?
That last one was all the way back in post 148, by Lukas, and I let it slide for quite a while. So, please folks, don’t think I was the one who raised attacks on others’ nationalities. But can we pleeease, on both sides, drop the nationalist rhetoric?
Meanwhile, my basic stance remains the same. Thankfully, this procedure happened to turn out very well, because of Lukas and Samppa’s advanced skills. Performing procedures illegally, though, is bad for the bod mod community as a whole, because of the risk of public backlash when something goes wrong. Public opinion may not matter to you in a short term, “fight the power” sort of way, but it will when it leads to the inevtiable backlash. Performing illegal procedures, like castration, for example, may be necessary because the medical establishment refuses to do so, but I still have not seen a good reason why this particular procedure should not have been performed by a licensed doctor in a licensed clinic, other then “the client didn’t wanna”.
First off, sorry I got Lukas and Samppa’s nationalities mixed up. I apologize to both Lukas and Samppa individually and to their nations collectively, an dplease replace the word “Finland” with the word “France” in my previous post. 🙂
My point though, in responding to the references already made about nationality, was that no nation in the world is without something about which they can and should feel guilty. Every citizen, everywhere could be yelled at for their national origin. “You’re from Ukraine/Bolivia/New Zealand, you obviously don’t know what you’re talking out”.
This sort of collective guilt has no place in a reasoned debate.
I did not originally raise the attacks on any person’s nationality, but I am not going to sit by and watch my own nationality be disparaged without rebuttal.
I pointed out that some people might take “ape” as racist, because I wanted them to know they were stumbling into some very inflammatory vernacular in English. Admittedly, it seems as if that might please them.
I was quite happy at first, to see the practitioners themselves had joined the discussion, but what would you call many of Samppa and Lukas’s responses other than yelling. This thread was relatively polite for an online debate, though quite strident, until they introduced such gems of reasoned debate as:
fucking jesus!!!! are u so fucking idiot that u really thinking that i cutting in english???!!!!!
deanna: i donât give a shit about ur respect
I give free advice to all online doctors
jordan: even if we were charging money, it wouldnât be your fucking business
On BME there are far more accepting, supportive people than a bunch of negative assholes
bastien, like i told u already, we donât need ur permission for it (pointing out to the client that they own the photos, which is true, since they got a release from him at the time of the procedure)
but ppl are shit. in finland we say âhelmiä sioilleâ?
who is going to make the regulation about body mods ? george buch governement ?! sorry Im laffing . are americans going to send some troops to arrest bodmods artist in other country ?! come on baby , think a bit by yourself and stop whatching cnn , ok ?
That last one was all the way back in post 148, by Lukas, and I let it slide for quite a while. So, please folks, don’t think I was the one who raised attacks on others’ nationalities. But can we pleeease, on both sides, drop the nationalist rhetoric?
Meanwhile, my basic stance remains the same. Thankfully, this procedure happened to turn out very well, because of Lukas and Samppa’s advanced skills. Performing procedures illegally, though, is bad for the bod mod community as a whole, because of the risk of public backlash when something goes wrong. Public opinion may not matter to you in a short term, “fight the power” sort of way, but it will when it leads to the inevtiable backlash. Performing illegal procedures, like castration, for example, may be necessary because the medical establishment refuses to do so, but I still have not seen a good reason why this particular procedure should not have been performed by a licensed doctor in a licensed clinic, other then “the client didn’t wanna”.
That’s a good enough reason for me.
That’s a good enough reason for me.
What started as a debate over a procedure turned into a bunch of insults to the artists (one could not agree with them, but there’s no need to insult) and a lot of insults based on language, nationality and so on. Can’t there be a civilized debate?
What started as a debate over a procedure turned into a bunch of insults to the artists (one could not agree with them, but there’s no need to insult) and a lot of insults based on language, nationality and so on. Can’t there be a civilized debate?
Nosimplehiway – “The client didn’t wanna” in my opinion should be enough. Bastien understood the decision he was making, and should have the right to make that decision. If he doesn’t have the right to have Lukas and Samppa do it, then by definition he does not own his body (but the government does).
Nosimplehiway – “The client didn’t wanna” in my opinion should be enough. Bastien understood the decision he was making, and should have the right to make that decision. If he doesn’t have the right to have Lukas and Samppa do it, then by definition he does not own his body (but the government does).
I complete agree with that comment Shannon
I complete agree with that comment Shannon
Lukas: Be carefully what u say to american ppl about their stupidity, otherwise they start calling “french fries” again “freedom fries”. Did u noticed that they started talking about “nd world war here? so be carefully that our procedure don’t cause 3rd world war now;)
Shannon: I will, but in the future i hope that u keep all my heavy body modification pics behind the passwords. is that ok? it’s sad, but ppl lost totally that point why we sent these pics here. And coz they are too stupid to understand and they start talking 2nd world war and and how shit english we writing with lukas, then i think it’s pointless to give any information ppl who can’t dealing with it.
and to all “american idiots”: you have to understand( i know that it’s really difficult) that there’s life outside of america too and luckily we don’t have as stupid laws than u have there.
and we speak different language than you, so we speaking at least two language. how many language u speak? enghish and not even properly that? we can start writing here in finnish and in french, but then u stupido’s can’t understand anything. so keep ur mouth shut if u don’t have anything smart to say. our scalpels don’t speak english!!! and yeah, maybe our procedure is “illegal” in many european countries too, but who told u where we did it? in eastern europe? in africa? in india? only me, lukas and bastien know location and we never tell it to you…
Lukas: Be carefully what u say to american ppl about their stupidity, otherwise they start calling “french fries” again “freedom fries”. Did u noticed that they started talking about “nd world war here? so be carefully that our procedure don’t cause 3rd world war now;)
Shannon: I will, but in the future i hope that u keep all my heavy body modification pics behind the passwords. is that ok? it’s sad, but ppl lost totally that point why we sent these pics here. And coz they are too stupid to understand and they start talking 2nd world war and and how shit english we writing with lukas, then i think it’s pointless to give any information ppl who can’t dealing with it.
and to all “american idiots”: you have to understand( i know that it’s really difficult) that there’s life outside of america too and luckily we don’t have as stupid laws than u have there.
and we speak different language than you, so we speaking at least two language. how many language u speak? enghish and not even properly that? we can start writing here in finnish and in french, but then u stupido’s can’t understand anything. so keep ur mouth shut if u don’t have anything smart to say. our scalpels don’t speak english!!! and yeah, maybe our procedure is “illegal” in many european countries too, but who told u where we did it? in eastern europe? in africa? in india? only me, lukas and bastien know location and we never tell it to you…
and go ahead and start talking shit about finland, i don’t care. i don’t live there, i hate finland and i don’t feel that i’m from Finland, i’m from nowhere…i’m not citizen of finland, i’m world citizen, sot don’t attac to finland then…
and go ahead and start talking shit about finland, i don’t care. i don’t live there, i hate finland and i don’t feel that i’m from Finland, i’m from nowhere…i’m not citizen of finland, i’m world citizen, sot don’t attac to finland then…
I think Zpira began talking about American’s because of Deanna’s post where she says that she knows more than Finnish artists (or doctors? can’t remember now), as she sounded racist
I think Zpira began talking about American’s because of Deanna’s post where she says that she knows more than Finnish artists (or doctors? can’t remember now), as she sounded racist
and why u all ppl just talk about how we did illegal procedure? could u pleas tell me one legal body modification procedure?not including piercing or tattoo….is implants legal everywhere? what about tongue splitting? or all genital modifications? what about scarification?
u think that wasn’t acceptable, coz u can see so much fat tissue and that was too much for u. And all that “if” shit start pissing me off. we did knew what we did. we don’t start doing procedure if we don’t know what we doing. Maybe that makes us as good artist and ppl trust us. If so there’s no any “IF”
if aunt’s have a cock, she’s uncle….
and why u all ppl just talk about how we did illegal procedure? could u pleas tell me one legal body modification procedure?not including piercing or tattoo….is implants legal everywhere? what about tongue splitting? or all genital modifications? what about scarification?
u think that wasn’t acceptable, coz u can see so much fat tissue and that was too much for u. And all that “if” shit start pissing me off. we did knew what we did. we don’t start doing procedure if we don’t know what we doing. Maybe that makes us as good artist and ppl trust us. If so there’s no any “IF”
if aunt’s have a cock, she’s uncle….
Lukas, your anti-american form of racism is uncalled for and shit. As an american i take offence to your comments. We are not all Bush followers and racists, so FUCK YOU!
BTW, 10 years?!? ONLY 10 years?? Thats nothing asshole, for doing that proceedure!! Spend 10 years in medical school, then you have a leg to stand on!!
Samppa: i appreciate your comments and opinions, but fat tissue is a rarity for me and so are 60 stitches! it is WAY more serious then to be handled but Body Mod practitioners, IMO. Not everyone is accostomed to what you do. The reality is that of the common person, not you or me. To me alot of this stuff is extreme, but this proceedure was going way too far. Congratulations on the success, but i think you were lucky.
I am glad that Bastien got the relief he needed.
If it were me i would have gone to a hospital, but he has every right to his choice. i thnak him, Lukas and Samppa for sharing thier pictures and perspectives with us. Hopefully we can learn from it, regardless of our opinions.
All the comments about how bad doctors and hospitals COULD be is beside the point. Lukas and Samppa had no place doing this proceedure, except that they had been asked to do so. There is no way you can expect me to believe that he could have given informed consent…unless Bastien is in the medical field himself. They seem to have done a good job, with good intentions from the heart. Unfortunately they failed to find him qualified medal help and did it themsleves. Doing so makes them look like grandstanding rockstars, hopefully this is not the case but it does look that way.
As much as i believe we all have the right to do WHATEVER we want with ourselves and our bodies that we want (to the limit of affecting others without thier consent), i tend to agree with MOST of the statements of Jordan, Ausmoz, etc.
I have NO experience in this realm and came into this debate with a neutral perspective and objective view-point. After hearing Lukas, Samppa and some of thier cronies rant, i feel more akin to Deannas perspective (strange enough).
NOTE: i am concerned that at some points in this debate people have been mistaking what is being talked about. For myself i am ONLY concerned with the SURGICAL proceedure which Lukas and Samppa performed to remove the Kelioding. NOT other bodymodifications. Although i do hope this will make EVERYONE take a step back and rethink thier capabilities.
There are already way to many folks that think they are artists or doctors by cutting people up. And dont forget that YOU are all breeding more and more hacks everytime you do a new piece and every time you put pictures out for public view! It woudl eb nice if these proceedures could be kept in a neat little bubble of experienced practitioners but that isnt reality. i hope this situation will make practitioners debate if the should, even when they CAN.
Keep in mind, this isnt just the individuals freedoms its effecting. It does and will have an effect on ALL of us, just wait for the government groups to see this shit!!
Lukas, your anti-american form of racism is uncalled for and shit. As an american i take offence to your comments. We are not all Bush followers and racists, so FUCK YOU!
BTW, 10 years?!? ONLY 10 years?? Thats nothing asshole, for doing that proceedure!! Spend 10 years in medical school, then you have a leg to stand on!!
Samppa: i appreciate your comments and opinions, but fat tissue is a rarity for me and so are 60 stitches! it is WAY more serious then to be handled but Body Mod practitioners, IMO. Not everyone is accostomed to what you do. The reality is that of the common person, not you or me. To me alot of this stuff is extreme, but this proceedure was going way too far. Congratulations on the success, but i think you were lucky.
I am glad that Bastien got the relief he needed.
If it were me i would have gone to a hospital, but he has every right to his choice. i thnak him, Lukas and Samppa for sharing thier pictures and perspectives with us. Hopefully we can learn from it, regardless of our opinions.
All the comments about how bad doctors and hospitals COULD be is beside the point. Lukas and Samppa had no place doing this proceedure, except that they had been asked to do so. There is no way you can expect me to believe that he could have given informed consent…unless Bastien is in the medical field himself. They seem to have done a good job, with good intentions from the heart. Unfortunately they failed to find him qualified medal help and did it themsleves. Doing so makes them look like grandstanding rockstars, hopefully this is not the case but it does look that way.
As much as i believe we all have the right to do WHATEVER we want with ourselves and our bodies that we want (to the limit of affecting others without thier consent), i tend to agree with MOST of the statements of Jordan, Ausmoz, etc.
I have NO experience in this realm and came into this debate with a neutral perspective and objective view-point. After hearing Lukas, Samppa and some of thier cronies rant, i feel more akin to Deannas perspective (strange enough).
NOTE: i am concerned that at some points in this debate people have been mistaking what is being talked about. For myself i am ONLY concerned with the SURGICAL proceedure which Lukas and Samppa performed to remove the Kelioding. NOT other bodymodifications. Although i do hope this will make EVERYONE take a step back and rethink thier capabilities.
There are already way to many folks that think they are artists or doctors by cutting people up. And dont forget that YOU are all breeding more and more hacks everytime you do a new piece and every time you put pictures out for public view! It woudl eb nice if these proceedures could be kept in a neat little bubble of experienced practitioners but that isnt reality. i hope this situation will make practitioners debate if the should, even when they CAN.
Keep in mind, this isnt just the individuals freedoms its effecting. It does and will have an effect on ALL of us, just wait for the government groups to see this shit!!
what a story, about 300 posts, amazing, we started from the law about this kind of procedure and we talk about everything now, interesting thing
just for clear more, i explain with everyone about this post (samppa, lukas, howie)
i understand now why they posted those pictures, so no problem, and everything is clear with howie too, dont disclaim him, it was a weird story but no when i see 300 posts, its awesome
i think those procedures can help bodmod grow on, basically before implants and other procedures were “allowed”everybody thougth it was hardcore and much people disclaimed it, so lets it grow on again
what a story, about 300 posts, amazing, we started from the law about this kind of procedure and we talk about everything now, interesting thing
just for clear more, i explain with everyone about this post (samppa, lukas, howie)
i understand now why they posted those pictures, so no problem, and everything is clear with howie too, dont disclaim him, it was a weird story but no when i see 300 posts, its awesome
i think those procedures can help bodmod grow on, basically before implants and other procedures were “allowed”everybody thougth it was hardcore and much people disclaimed it, so lets it grow on again
The whole point of going to a skilled professional (whether a licensed doctor or Samppa/Lukas) is that they often know more than the client. Unless Bastien has some training or knowledge which has not yet been mentioned or unless you want to argue that there is no special level of skill needed to understand this sort of thing beyond what the average guy on the street knows, Bastien did not understand the decision he was making. Therefore, he was unable to give truly informed consent. Had something gone wrong, I doubt “the client wanted it” would be much of a legal defense in any jurisdiction.
In tattooing, clients will often ask me about glow in the dark tattoos. I could do many of these because the client wants them. Even after telling them the risks, some clients would still want them. Should I do them on the theory that the client always knows best what to do with his body? No, because if you are a professional, you realize that part of being a professional is showing better judgment than those who are not trained in your field.
I have a problem with an unlicensed practitioner agreeing to this procedure, and thereby taking a risk that could easily backfire on the whole bod mod community where it was performed… wherever it was performed. The practitioners should have referred this to a licensed doctor, not because the practitioners were unable to perform it (clearly they were technically able to), but because of the legal and political risks involved. A professional should follow the local laws which regulate their field and work to improve those laws when they don’t work well. But they should not simply ignore those laws because the mod is kewl or the law is stupid. (BTW, if as Samppa implies this was performed somewhere where it was not illegal, well, okay, then, I am all for it. You did a good job and congratulations.)
In the bodmod community, we accept legal risks when there is no other choice, such as when it’s a procedure licensed physicians refuse to perform, but that was not the case here.
Upside of all this: we get to see Samppa show a model of how to conduct a polite, well-reasoned debate. (see post 281). Of course, us idiot American apes are too stupid to understand anything, so it probably won’t help. But it’s awfully nice of him to try.
The whole point of going to a skilled professional (whether a licensed doctor or Samppa/Lukas) is that they often know more than the client. Unless Bastien has some training or knowledge which has not yet been mentioned or unless you want to argue that there is no special level of skill needed to understand this sort of thing beyond what the average guy on the street knows, Bastien did not understand the decision he was making. Therefore, he was unable to give truly informed consent. Had something gone wrong, I doubt “the client wanted it” would be much of a legal defense in any jurisdiction.
In tattooing, clients will often ask me about glow in the dark tattoos. I could do many of these because the client wants them. Even after telling them the risks, some clients would still want them. Should I do them on the theory that the client always knows best what to do with his body? No, because if you are a professional, you realize that part of being a professional is showing better judgment than those who are not trained in your field.
I have a problem with an unlicensed practitioner agreeing to this procedure, and thereby taking a risk that could easily backfire on the whole bod mod community where it was performed… wherever it was performed. The practitioners should have referred this to a licensed doctor, not because the practitioners were unable to perform it (clearly they were technically able to), but because of the legal and political risks involved. A professional should follow the local laws which regulate their field and work to improve those laws when they don’t work well. But they should not simply ignore those laws because the mod is kewl or the law is stupid. (BTW, if as Samppa implies this was performed somewhere where it was not illegal, well, okay, then, I am all for it. You did a good job and congratulations.)
In the bodmod community, we accept legal risks when there is no other choice, such as when it’s a procedure licensed physicians refuse to perform, but that was not the case here.
Upside of all this: we get to see Samppa show a model of how to conduct a polite, well-reasoned debate. (see post 281). Of course, us idiot American apes are too stupid to understand anything, so it probably won’t help. But it’s awfully nice of him to try.
BTW, Bastien, I know someone said it before, but it deserves to be said again: great tattoos! I am jealous. 🙂
BTW, Bastien, I know someone said it before, but it deserves to be said again: great tattoos! I am jealous. 🙂
pete DaSilva – You say (about yourself), “I have no experience in this realm”, yet you’re making damning statements about the severity of this procedure, statements which my experience says are fundamentally incorrect.
pete DaSilva – You say (about yourself), “I have no experience in this realm”, yet you’re making damning statements about the severity of this procedure, statements which my experience says are fundamentally incorrect.
btw, bastien is artist himself too
btw, bastien is artist himself too
This is time consuming, kind of amusing, partly interesting, and pretty much bullshit.
Shannon: would it be possible to make a “topic filter” in these treads to avoid the voices of the ignorant? Any one should still be able to read, but off topic posts stays out of the discussion.
This is time consuming, kind of amusing, partly interesting, and pretty much bullshit.
Shannon: would it be possible to make a “topic filter” in these treads to avoid the voices of the ignorant? Any one should still be able to read, but off topic posts stays out of the discussion.
OK shannon, fair enough. but i have tried to make sure my comments about the proceedure are IN MY OPINION. IN MY OPINION this proceedure is extremely severe, out of the realm of Body Mod practitioners (no matter how good they are), and in serious need of medical attention.
I am VERY glad Bastien recieved relief. i applaud Samppa and Lukas for thier success. Still i do not feel it was appropriate for them to perform the proceedure, IMO.
OK shannon, fair enough. but i have tried to make sure my comments about the proceedure are IN MY OPINION. IN MY OPINION this proceedure is extremely severe, out of the realm of Body Mod practitioners (no matter how good they are), and in serious need of medical attention.
I am VERY glad Bastien recieved relief. i applaud Samppa and Lukas for thier success. Still i do not feel it was appropriate for them to perform the proceedure, IMO.
Pete – The problem is to make that statement about this procedure, you have to be willing to make it about scarification in general, to say nothing of transscrotal piercing, implants, tongue splitting, and so on.
Bleeding – We could probably patch in an IAM-only mode so people have to at least be willing to personally stand behind their comments rather than be anonymous.
Pete – The problem is to make that statement about this procedure, you have to be willing to make it about scarification in general, to say nothing of transscrotal piercing, implants, tongue splitting, and so on.
Bleeding – We could probably patch in an IAM-only mode so people have to at least be willing to personally stand behind their comments rather than be anonymous.
Wow. I really can’t believe I just read every comment in this thread. Quite an accomplishment, if I do say so myself!
That being said, I think that this is a grown man who is perfectly capable of making his own decisions about his own body. Myself, I probably would’ve seen a doctor, but that’s just me. Obviously, it wasn’t our decision to make, it was Bastien’s.
I also believe that every time someone on a LiveJournal community freaks out because they have a bump on their piercing and think it’s a keloid, I’m going to refer them to this post.
Anyway, thanks for posting these Shannon (and thanks to Lukas, Saampa, and Bastien for telling this story). I’ve reached my educational and grossed out limit for the day 🙂
Wow. I really can’t believe I just read every comment in this thread. Quite an accomplishment, if I do say so myself!
That being said, I think that this is a grown man who is perfectly capable of making his own decisions about his own body. Myself, I probably would’ve seen a doctor, but that’s just me. Obviously, it wasn’t our decision to make, it was Bastien’s.
I also believe that every time someone on a LiveJournal community freaks out because they have a bump on their piercing and think it’s a keloid, I’m going to refer them to this post.
Anyway, thanks for posting these Shannon (and thanks to Lukas, Saampa, and Bastien for telling this story). I’ve reached my educational and grossed out limit for the day 🙂
sorry Shannon, but i ABSOLUTELY disagree that this proceedure MUST be lumped in with scarification in general, implants, etc.
i see this proceedure on its own.
Are you trying to say that this removal was an attempt at art, ritual, etc. i think this proceedure was an attempt at playing doctor.
sorry Shannon, but i ABSOLUTELY disagree that this proceedure MUST be lumped in with scarification in general, implants, etc.
i see this proceedure on its own.
Are you trying to say that this removal was an attempt at art, ritual, etc. i think this proceedure was an attempt at playing doctor.
Looks my scars after my surgery before the swelling went down. Poor guy, I feel his pain there. That “scarification artist” needs to be shot, that’s far too deep, especially for cutting right there. I hope the healing goes well.
Looks my scars after my surgery before the swelling went down. Poor guy, I feel his pain there. That “scarification artist” needs to be shot, that’s far too deep, especially for cutting right there. I hope the healing goes well.
To no one specific.
Everyone has an opinion but an uninformed opinion is an invalid one.
To no one specific.
Everyone has an opinion but an uninformed opinion is an invalid one.
Shannon:
What’s so wrong with anonymous posting? Doesn’t mean we don’t stand behind our beliefs.
I must be quite the coward.
Pete:
It really doesn’t matter if you don’t stand behind the proceedure or not. You were uninvolved.
To stand behind the notion of “it effects our community if they get arrested” Well, it effects the community regardless. Both possibly positive. The “community” may not always be underground but currently it is. It won’t change due to someone’s incarceration. Perhaps we’ll just get back to concealing it a little more.
I really don’t see the difference in 6 sutures or 60.
Shannon:
What’s so wrong with anonymous posting? Doesn’t mean we don’t stand behind our beliefs.
I must be quite the coward.
Pete:
It really doesn’t matter if you don’t stand behind the proceedure or not. You were uninvolved.
To stand behind the notion of “it effects our community if they get arrested” Well, it effects the community regardless. Both possibly positive. The “community” may not always be underground but currently it is. It won’t change due to someone’s incarceration. Perhaps we’ll just get back to concealing it a little more.
I really don’t see the difference in 6 sutures or 60.
Pete DaSilva – I’m saying that this procedure is less intensive than other procedures that we generally accept as being non-medical domain. I don’t see that the motivation is relevant. All that’s relevant is that he made an informed decision about what he wanted to do with his body. We either support his right to do so or we don’t. Personally I support people in making ANY decision they want about their own bodies.
Pete DaSilva – I’m saying that this procedure is less intensive than other procedures that we generally accept as being non-medical domain. I don’t see that the motivation is relevant. All that’s relevant is that he made an informed decision about what he wanted to do with his body. We either support his right to do so or we don’t. Personally I support people in making ANY decision they want about their own bodies.
Pete:
When Shannon had his arm sutured, it wasn’t for any artistic reason either. Should he have gone to the hospital to get sewn up. What for?
To miss out on all the fun of getting to play doctor?
Pete:
When Shannon had his arm sutured, it wasn’t for any artistic reason either. Should he have gone to the hospital to get sewn up. What for?
To miss out on all the fun of getting to play doctor?
Lukas and Samppa, be careful on how you generalize about Americans. At the beginning of this thread I sympathized with you. I think you made the right decision and did a good thing for Bastien. In addition, I have a great amount of respect for the work you have done in the past; however, your comments about Americans are incredibly insulting and I am beginning to question my respect for you.
I am an American and no, I DO NOT believe that America is the only part of the world, nor do I think that I am better than anyone else because I am American. I realize that there is life outside of the United States.
P.S. Samppa, I speak three languages and I am currently learning a fourth.
Lukas and Samppa, be careful on how you generalize about Americans. At the beginning of this thread I sympathized with you. I think you made the right decision and did a good thing for Bastien. In addition, I have a great amount of respect for the work you have done in the past; however, your comments about Americans are incredibly insulting and I am beginning to question my respect for you.
I am an American and no, I DO NOT believe that America is the only part of the world, nor do I think that I am better than anyone else because I am American. I realize that there is life outside of the United States.
P.S. Samppa, I speak three languages and I am currently learning a fourth.
“I’ve actually considered splitting ModBlog into three pieces; a members blog, a BME/Girls/Boys blog, and a mainstream mods blog”.
I think its really sad if it has to come to this. I personally don’t have an IAM account because currently I can’t afford to. My point is that if part of ModBlog become filtered so I can only see it with a password, I lose out on seeing a large part of the community that I have an interest in.
Sorry its sounds like such a whiney post!
“I’ve actually considered splitting ModBlog into three pieces; a members blog, a BME/Girls/Boys blog, and a mainstream mods blog”.
I think its really sad if it has to come to this. I personally don’t have an IAM account because currently I can’t afford to. My point is that if part of ModBlog become filtered so I can only see it with a password, I lose out on seeing a large part of the community that I have an interest in.
Sorry its sounds like such a whiney post!
Bastien is a practitioner himself? Hmm, did not know that. Okeydoke, so he did have the technical knowledge to give informed consent. Cool!
I still say this procedure is different from others (castration, amputation, scrotal splitting, etc) in that you cannot get licensed doctors to perform them. Folks who desperately want these mods have no choice but to go underground.
Had Bastien presented himself at any hospital anywhere, I highly doubt if he would have been refused treament. So I ask again a question no one has yet answered. Why did he not use the legitimate medical system? The simple answer, of course, is “he didn’t want to”. I am wondering, though, why… what was the decision making process? Is he in a community where being found insane is a likely outcome? Could he not afford licensed treament? Does he simply have a phobia of doctors and hospitals? Was he in a warzone or developing nation where there is no functioning medical system?
Bastien is a practitioner himself? Hmm, did not know that. Okeydoke, so he did have the technical knowledge to give informed consent. Cool!
I still say this procedure is different from others (castration, amputation, scrotal splitting, etc) in that you cannot get licensed doctors to perform them. Folks who desperately want these mods have no choice but to go underground.
Had Bastien presented himself at any hospital anywhere, I highly doubt if he would have been refused treament. So I ask again a question no one has yet answered. Why did he not use the legitimate medical system? The simple answer, of course, is “he didn’t want to”. I am wondering, though, why… what was the decision making process? Is he in a community where being found insane is a likely outcome? Could he not afford licensed treament? Does he simply have a phobia of doctors and hospitals? Was he in a warzone or developing nation where there is no functioning medical system?
About the anti-americanism: you guys don’t get the point. The problem is that everybody is talking about the “illegal” procedure and that bodymod should be regulated/controlled/whatever. But they don’t even think about the fact that maybe in other countrys this might be legal, and that a regulation would have no effect because it would only be national. And the original procedure was done in Switzerland and the fixing somewhere else.
It’s not about all americans consciously believing that the world is limited to their borders, which is certainly not the case. But to us people from other countrys, stuff like the above mentioned often give us the impression that a lot of americans assume that the whole world works like their country. Of course it’s also a common prejudice but it’s often approved.
I hope I didn’t offend anybody, I just wanted to clarify that.
About the anti-americanism: you guys don’t get the point. The problem is that everybody is talking about the “illegal” procedure and that bodymod should be regulated/controlled/whatever. But they don’t even think about the fact that maybe in other countrys this might be legal, and that a regulation would have no effect because it would only be national. And the original procedure was done in Switzerland and the fixing somewhere else.
It’s not about all americans consciously believing that the world is limited to their borders, which is certainly not the case. But to us people from other countrys, stuff like the above mentioned often give us the impression that a lot of americans assume that the whole world works like their country. Of course it’s also a common prejudice but it’s often approved.
I hope I didn’t offend anybody, I just wanted to clarify that.
I didn’t really want to get involved in this whole debate but have decided to throw my two cents in. I’ve just had blood drawn twice in the last two days and am currently looking at a 2″ square bruise on my right arm, the sample having been taken by a nurse who didn’t even use a steri-swab on the area.
The left arm (swabbed before sample was taken and taken at a different clinic) has no sign of bruising at all.
Just to show that a professional qualification does not always mean that the practicioner is infallible. I know several of my friends have managed to play pierce me with no bruising at all (and yes I realise there is a difference in needle size and the depth of the piercing, it’s not a perfect example). I also no there is no way they would attempt it without attempting to clean the area first…
Best of luck to you Bastien, I hope it heals well.
I didn’t really want to get involved in this whole debate but have decided to throw my two cents in. I’ve just had blood drawn twice in the last two days and am currently looking at a 2″ square bruise on my right arm, the sample having been taken by a nurse who didn’t even use a steri-swab on the area.
The left arm (swabbed before sample was taken and taken at a different clinic) has no sign of bruising at all.
Just to show that a professional qualification does not always mean that the practicioner is infallible. I know several of my friends have managed to play pierce me with no bruising at all (and yes I realise there is a difference in needle size and the depth of the piercing, it’s not a perfect example). I also no there is no way they would attempt it without attempting to clean the area first…
Best of luck to you Bastien, I hope it heals well.
Just to make this thread a little longer, I’d just like to add my quick opinion. I use the internet primarily as a means of education, and having never seen such extensive keloids and the ensuing corrective measures before I am now a more knowledgeable individual. That is what BME is for, and that was (I assume) the driving force behind posting these pictures in the public arena – education.
Thankyou to all concerned for sharing this information, and remember that there are much, much worse things going on in the world that will never be subject to such public scrutiny. Informed consent is present here, but to millions of people in the world choice, or freedom, are alien concepts.
That is something which infuriates me.
Just to make this thread a little longer, I’d just like to add my quick opinion. I use the internet primarily as a means of education, and having never seen such extensive keloids and the ensuing corrective measures before I am now a more knowledgeable individual. That is what BME is for, and that was (I assume) the driving force behind posting these pictures in the public arena – education.
Thankyou to all concerned for sharing this information, and remember that there are much, much worse things going on in the world that will never be subject to such public scrutiny. Informed consent is present here, but to millions of people in the world choice, or freedom, are alien concepts.
That is something which infuriates me.
Woz: did i say that all americans are idiots? i thought that i say “to all american idiots”…huge different, eh?
Woz: did i say that all americans are idiots? i thought that i say “to all american idiots”…huge different, eh?
well finally got to the last comment…..after having read lots of bullshit…lots of correct ideas and sooo and sooo and sooo ooonn….i just have to say that howie is not to be blamed cos of the procedure. looking at the fresh scar i must say it’s a bit too deep for my point of view. this, added to the fact that his pigmentation denotes he has some issue with scarring, justifies what had happened with the big keloids. of course aftercare also influences a bit….and another right thing….man i’ve seen scars grow so fucking much at a year…..when they are supposed to be already settled down. some ofmine had behaved like that, and now are settled down. i agree on the ring point…on the bare forearms for the procedure….but there’s nothing more i can really critique without knowing all the essentials of the situation. this just shows us how something not pretended to be like that, can turn in a hell….just be careful with what u do….be clear when u drop ideas to ya practicioner…and, if he’s well trained or self prepraed, he’ll know how to act in order to achieve the best results…really big CONGRATS fro sampa and lukas that helped this guy as much as they could….and i think just as they do…cmon, how much would u charge someone that really needs helps…i’ve done tons of free procedures to save peoples faces or bodies without having a cent paid, and the satisfaction of see they face smile is all i needed to feel fullfilled….keep on doing nice procedures and enlightening our eyes with ya art…
well finally got to the last comment…..after having read lots of bullshit…lots of correct ideas and sooo and sooo and sooo ooonn….i just have to say that howie is not to be blamed cos of the procedure. looking at the fresh scar i must say it’s a bit too deep for my point of view. this, added to the fact that his pigmentation denotes he has some issue with scarring, justifies what had happened with the big keloids. of course aftercare also influences a bit….and another right thing….man i’ve seen scars grow so fucking much at a year…..when they are supposed to be already settled down. some ofmine had behaved like that, and now are settled down. i agree on the ring point…on the bare forearms for the procedure….but there’s nothing more i can really critique without knowing all the essentials of the situation. this just shows us how something not pretended to be like that, can turn in a hell….just be careful with what u do….be clear when u drop ideas to ya practicioner…and, if he’s well trained or self prepraed, he’ll know how to act in order to achieve the best results…really big CONGRATS fro sampa and lukas that helped this guy as much as they could….and i think just as they do…cmon, how much would u charge someone that really needs helps…i’ve done tons of free procedures to save peoples faces or bodies without having a cent paid, and the satisfaction of see they face smile is all i needed to feel fullfilled….keep on doing nice procedures and enlightening our eyes with ya art…
“I’m saying that this procedure is less intensive than other procedures that we generally accept as being non-medical domain. I don’t see that the motivation is relevant.”
I personally agree with this statement. However, in the UK at least, the law doesn’t. If you are doing a procedure to correct a problem, that makes it practising medicine without a licence (we don’t have the same rules about using medical tools as in the states)….leaving us in the stupid position that it’s legal for a mod artist to remove someone’s tongue web if it’s normal, but if its too short and is stopping them sticking their tongue out properly, or it is catching on their teeth and causing them pain, legally only a doctor would be allowed to deal with it.
“I’m saying that this procedure is less intensive than other procedures that we generally accept as being non-medical domain. I don’t see that the motivation is relevant.”
I personally agree with this statement. However, in the UK at least, the law doesn’t. If you are doing a procedure to correct a problem, that makes it practising medicine without a licence (we don’t have the same rules about using medical tools as in the states)….leaving us in the stupid position that it’s legal for a mod artist to remove someone’s tongue web if it’s normal, but if its too short and is stopping them sticking their tongue out properly, or it is catching on their teeth and causing them pain, legally only a doctor would be allowed to deal with it.
“man i’ve seen scars grow so fucking much at a year…..when they are supposed to be already settled down”
Wild Skin – what gave you this impression? Scar tissue normally takes at least 2-3 years to fully mature, and keloid scars often carry on growing and growing.
“man i’ve seen scars grow so fucking much at a year…..when they are supposed to be already settled down”
Wild Skin – what gave you this impression? Scar tissue normally takes at least 2-3 years to fully mature, and keloid scars often carry on growing and growing.
venusdiablo – I have too many bad experiences with nurses who are allowed near needles. I once left after getting blood drawn with 7 puncture marks and sizable bruising over both arms and hands. She also had to use 3 different sized needles before she was happy.
She also wore one pair of gloves throughout, despite moving around and touching things in her room which obviously weren’t sterile… which may not have harmed me at all but still irked me a little!
I now won’t let anyone other than a phlebotomist near me with a needle for medical purposes.
Sometimes you really wish they’d learn from body mod practitioners.
venusdiablo – I have too many bad experiences with nurses who are allowed near needles. I once left after getting blood drawn with 7 puncture marks and sizable bruising over both arms and hands. She also had to use 3 different sized needles before she was happy.
She also wore one pair of gloves throughout, despite moving around and touching things in her room which obviously weren’t sterile… which may not have harmed me at all but still irked me a little!
I now won’t let anyone other than a phlebotomist near me with a needle for medical purposes.
Sometimes you really wish they’d learn from body mod practitioners.
everytime i come back to this entry i get pissed off
not cause of all the comments
cause i dont keliod for shit hahaha
seriously i gave my face HELL for 2 weeks and they are so faint i need to cut them again
and i will cut them, even though apprently its a crime
everytime i come back to this entry i get pissed off
not cause of all the comments
cause i dont keliod for shit hahaha
seriously i gave my face HELL for 2 weeks and they are so faint i need to cut them again
and i will cut them, even though apprently its a crime
Regarding post #84 (ancient history, I know)
I did not mean to imply that I thought either of the artists in question SHOULD be jailed or fined. I extend my apologies to Mssrs. Zpira and vonCyborg if that was inferred.
I only wanted to point out the potential legal ramifications of their actions to anyone who might be considering performing similar procedures. I also wanted to point out that in legal procedings in the US, which is all I am familiar with, the fact that someone is acting out the desires of another is not a legal defense.
Regarding post #84 (ancient history, I know)
I did not mean to imply that I thought either of the artists in question SHOULD be jailed or fined. I extend my apologies to Mssrs. Zpira and vonCyborg if that was inferred.
I only wanted to point out the potential legal ramifications of their actions to anyone who might be considering performing similar procedures. I also wanted to point out that in legal procedings in the US, which is all I am familiar with, the fact that someone is acting out the desires of another is not a legal defense.
Now we’re back to loving each other….
…Bastien – who did your arms?! Stunning work 😀
*n
PS: I agree with Shannon’s plan to perhaps make the more extreme Modblog entries password-protected…Even if it means that I’ll have to get off my fat ass and finally join IAM after all this time 😉