When scarification goes bad

Update: First, the person in this procedure healed fine and is very happy. Second, I want to make it clear that while this procedure looks very intense, it’s probably less intense as a procedure than some large skin removal work, transscrotal piercings, implants, tongue splitting, and all the other procedures generally accepted by the body modification community.

Ok, this is a pretty gory entry. I apologize for that. But I think it’s important to emphasize that when you do large scale scarification (or sometimes small scale), sometimes the keloid grows out of control and starts getting very uncomfortable, restricting mobility, and so on. This piece was only about a month old in the photos below (it was done by a “well known body modification artist” who’s gonna stay unnamed because that’s not the point of the entry) and the customer was quite unhappy and wanted it dealt with.

Samppa Von Cyborg and Lukas Zpira got together to help him as much as they could. They felt that all of it was cut too deep, and did their best to excise the tissue, although the centre keloid was not removed (I’m assuming it was adhered right to the cartilage at bottom of the sternum). Starting with some exploratory cuts:

Mostly off and looking very gory:

As you can see, quite a chasm of tissue was removed! Check out the fatty tissue below:

Once stitched up, I can’t imagine how relived and happy the customer must have been. It’s a pretty intense removal, and a lot to go through, but Lukas and Samppa did a nice job restoring him… Hopefully the removal doesn’t have similar keloiding issues (sometimes it’s a problem that snowballs).

Finally, the gross out shot of the removed tissue:

Please take scarification seriously!!!

This entry was posted in ModBlog and tagged , , by Shannon Larratt. Bookmark the permalink.

About Shannon Larratt

Shannon Larratt is the founder of BME (1994) and its former editor and publisher. After a four year hiatus between 2008 and 2012, Shannon is back adding his commentary to ModBlog. It should be noted that any comments in these entries are the opinion of Shannon Larratt and may or may not be shared by BMEzine.com LLC or the other staff or members of BME. Entry text Copyright © Shannon Larratt. Reproduced under license by BMEzine.com LLC. Pictures may be copyright to their respective owners. You can also find Shannon at Zentastic or on Facebook.

576 thoughts on “When scarification goes bad

  1. wow. i actually got the “watery-mouth-i’m-gonna-vomit” thing.

    jesus fucking christ.

    it was the shot of the fatty tissue after the keloid was taken off. thats what did it.

  2. Jesus fucking Christ. Maybe it’s just me, but this doesn’t really seem like the kind of thing that you should rely on your friendly neighbourhood heavy mod practitioner to take care of.

  3. :( i didnt get freaked out one bit, didnt even cringe. I am desnsitized. Feel sorry for the guy who went through that, im sure the 2 guys did theyre best to salvage it.
    On a side note i saw Lukas Zpira in Marquise Body Art in Lyon a few days ago. None of my friends are into the body mod culture and didnt know who he was. They didnt know why I was so excited. I really wanted to go say hi but didnt due to me being a wuss. :)

  4. the first picture squicked me more than any of the others.
    prolly cos they looked like giant scar bugs. with lots of legs.

    i hope he doesn’t get the same problem again. poor guy.

  5. wow, that just looked brutal, hopefully that will heal much better this time around
    can’t imagine how deep you’d have to cut to get that amoount of damage

  6. Sweet Jesus! Was he under any sort of anesthesia?! I bet those keloids had to be damn unpleasant though. I’d like to see how the removal turns out once it’s healed.

  7. Yeah he had a pleasantness about him. Yeah i would have loved to but I wouldnt know what to say. I think he was doing some procedure there anyway.
    Next time maybe. Definetly. Thanks :D

  8. It’s a shame it’s ok to display the names of the practitioners who felt qualified to remedy the keloids but not name the practitioner who did the original work; in the day and age of the consumer/customer/recipient being liable for doing their own research and due diligence, that information could possibly keep them from having to seek other other practitioners for additional assistance.

  9. “Eat at Luigui’s!!!!”

    I know what the poster above means by the watery mouth vomit thing. These are train wreck images. The shot of him looking serene with a gaping chest wound is both shocking and beautiful. I had to look a bunch of times…

  10. Wow, poor guy. I really feel sorry for him. I didn’t even know it was possible for scarification to go bad like that!

  11. okay, so how much of this was the practitioner cutting too deep and how much was this the client waiting a month to watch these fat keloids form? my cuttings didn’t keloid overnight.

  12. That’s why I would never try scarification.

    Oh yeah, that and it’s illegal in Scotland.

    Bloody ‘laws’.

  13. Man.

    I think if any practitioner did that to me, it wouldn’t be another practitioner I’d go to to solve it.

  14. Holy shit.
    Holy shit.

    I have to agree with Jordan here- although it’s pretty awesome if you have such a deep level of trust in someone, this is something that might be better left to cosmetic surgeon type person.

    That said, these are some pretty hardcore photos, and I hope the poor guy had plenty of painkillers!

  15. I agree with many of the other comments here. I have lots of respect for modification artists, but this is something that should be handled by a medical professional. Some of those sutures (albeit well placed and using appropriate technique) appear to be under a significant amount of tension

    I am glad that you are posting these pictures so more people will be aware that scarifications are not procedures without significant risk.


    i mean…sometimes its not even the artist that did such scar’s fault… maybe this guy just has an intense tendency to grow ugly bad queloids…

    im really happy that he was abble to solve his problem…

    lets just hope he heals well ;)

  17. Maybe I’m the only one who noticed but, nasty scars and blood aside, I think his tattoo and piercing combo dealy is pretty sweet. It seems like the sternum piercing is supposed to look like two buttons to fasten what looks sort of like a coat or button up shirt of sorts. I could be wrong but thats the first thing I noticed (yes, even before the scarring).

  18. I completely agree with christyn, I think it’s important for potential clients to know what practioner did the intial scarring. Too bad mistakes are never included in artist portfolios…

  19. btw scars form on the subcutaneous tissue layer (commonly known as “skin”) and cannot adhere to skeletal bodies like the sternum…

  20. The first practitioner probably did a poor job here, no question about it — but I REALLY think the bigger issue here is that what is shown in the pictures here is really fucked up and should NOT be done by some guys who are just playing doctor.

  21. This is the last thing I needed to see when I’m going in for a scarification next monday.

  22. ^ Agreed. I would go to a doc to get those removed. I guess people live inside their means though

  23. for everyone saying that he should have seen a surgeon:

    That may of been a good option, but think about what a surgeon would do differently compared these practicioners did. The answer is probably not much more than anesthesia.

    Also consider the background these practioners have. They’re not you’re regular hack job working in your mother’s basement, these are world renown practitioners.

  24. ^^^
    yeah, surgeons might not do much more. but they’d make nicer stitches.

    pretty impressive modders, though.

    and i’d definitely choose an MD over a PhD!

  25. i can handle looking at a great variety of bloody and gory and run-over-by-a-train things but this really, really makes my skin crawl. jesus.

  26. Raunchy.

    Though I love the bit of his tattoos which were visible. I really like ORIGINAL bold blackwork.

    And yes, PhDs are “doctors,” but not the kind most of you are thinking of…

  27. Zpira does use xylocaine, which is arguable safer than a general anaesthesia. I would think that even with a skilled reconstructive/plastic surgeon, this would probably be an out-patient procedure done with a local.
    That said, I think that for something of that order, I would have preferred to see a board certified reconstructive surgeon had I been in his position. While it’s certainly interesting and neat, I think that he’d have less scarring in the end.
    Question: why did Messrs. Von Cyborg and Zpira choose to use sutures? Don’t staples usually hold high tension areas better than sutures? I kinda thought that staples were nearly as readily available as well…

  28. Shannon, that midline scar is really nowhere near the sternum, and a keloid scar wouldn’t adhere to bone anyway.

    As for the “surgery” I don’t even know where to start… There are so many reasons why that surgery should have been done in a sterile operating environment by qualified plastic surgeons. Of course surgeons would have done it differently… to anyone who’s ever seen any surgery it’s immediately obvious – that surgery is terrible. I probably could have done better myself, but I wouldn’t have.

    Just look at the size of the keloid compared to the length of the incision/scar. It looks like the incision had to be extended signifigantly towards the nipple (and downwards to a lesser extent) due to poor planning and the skin not lining up – you can’t just sew a rounded cut like they’d made initially with sutures. The resulting scar is almost twice the length it needed to be.

    Look at the tension the stitches are under… Look at the bare arms of the practitioners… are those even sterile gloves? Look at the scalpel blade they’re using.

    I hope this guy has access to good medical care, because if he didn’t need it before…

    He’ll be lucky not to get a really nasty infection, let alone how that huge scar will heal (future keloid scar formation is likely). I just hope they only attempted that one on his right that you’ve shown pictures of, and not the one on the left as well.

    I hope no-one reading modblog gets the impression that this was in any way a good way to deal with his scarring.

  29. this fellow should be in a hospital on bed rest with iv antibotics and fluids not to mention pain meds…

    Sometime I really think people need to step back and think before doing something like this cause just because you CAN does NOT mean you should.

    I have scarifications and luckly this did not happen to me. I have gotten questions and lectures from doctors after they had seen my healed scars and I know I probably would have gone to my artist for help if this happened to me but I think in the end I would have gone to a surgeon for the removal seeing as how deep they had to cut for the removal. scary…
    I hope that this fellow is well and healthly.

  30. Funny, there is even a picture of someone giving the poor guy anesthetics and no one noticed…

  31. Oh, and anyone who starts off a rant by saying “I probably could have done better myself, but I wouldn’t have.” has to be full of it. My two cents.

  32. Full of it? *shrugs*

    I have some (medical) surgical experience. I’m not claiming to be qualified to have performed this person’s surgery, but neither were the people who did. They’re the ones who went ahead and did it anyway, not me.

  33. I’d just like to defend Samppa and Lukas here by saying that the guy didn’t go to a surgeon, he went to them, and they did what they could, the best they could.
    The guy may not have had the large amount of money a plastic surgeon would have charged, and he might have been told by a doctor that since it’s not life threatening, he wouldn’t get it for free in the near future on his country’s medical system.

    If you’ve ever watched S and L work, you’ll know they’re fanatical about sterility – of course the gloves are sterile – and it’s not like they’re dragging their bare arms (washed and scrubbed with antibacterial stuff) through the wounds.

    Also I’d like to point out that Samppa does some of the neatest stitching I’ve ever seen, far better than any doctor my partner and I have been operated on by. In that photo, you can only really see the big stitches, but they’re just there to help keep the tension right – there’s actually loads of tiny neat stitches all the way up, in between.

    It’s easy to sit behind your computer screen and slag off the work of others, but if you don’t know the situation and you haven’t seen the end result, it’s hardly fair or appropriate.

  34. Oh my fucking god. Wow. In the first picture, they look so… like some type of parasite clinging to his skin and trying to burrow into it.

  35. I think that this is fine for what it is.

    Obviously, Lukas and Samppa are very experienced in the ways of cutting, and the guy with the keloids probably knew that there were other options he could have pursued.

    If he wanted to go to a doctor, he probably would have. And, I don’t think that Lukas and Samppa just stitched him up and threw him out when they were finished. I’m sure they’ll be checking up on him, and if its necesarry, get him medical attention (e.g. in case an infection arises).

  36. Thank you for posting that, Shannon. I also have the fear of many not taking scarification (or many mods for that matter) seriously in the sense that they do not seem prepared to suffer consequences if things do go wrong (or go right). Having these reminders will hopefully heighten the awareness towards the true, potential risks of body modification, even within ideal conditions. Afterall, what beauty and significance does body modification hold if there are no risks, sacrifices, or pain involved?

  37. So is it the artists fault or not? Because I think it’s just how his body treats flesh removals: with big fat keloids. I wonder how it’s possible to find out that it was cut to deep 4 Months after the cutting…

  38. I absolutely agree with ausmoz.

    From an infection control perspective this is a nightmare. It’s clearly not a sterile area: gloves don’t look sterile (and even if they were, they wern’t shortly after they came into contact with non-sterile arms due to no sterile scrub clothes), there’s no sterile drapes, and there doesn’t seem to be any betadine used to sterilise the surrounding skin.

    The suturing is a little difficult to make out from the pictures, but the order in which they seem to have been placed is questionable as to how good the tension will end up.

    I really hope this guy has read these posts and goes to his local doctor for some advice re: preventing/treating his inevitable infection.

    Shannon, could you follow this guy up so we know how the story of his keloids ends?!?!

  39. It does look like they’ve used some betadine in the pics on my monitor, but yes, there is a complete lack of sterility.

    I also noticed one of those guys is wearing a ring under his gloves… so he couldn’t have been all that serious about washing his hands.

    I was thinking… if this was done in a hospital situation, and they decided to excise a keloid that big, they might have just packed and dressed the wound, and left it to heal by secondary intention, rather than suturing it closed under so much tension.

    Apart from surgical excision, there are medical treatments, like injecting steroids, pressure bandages, and dressings that could both reduce the keloid before surgery and decrease the chance of another keloid forming after surgery. I’m sure if this guy has had a lot of pain from these keloids, he’d appreciate the benefit he could derive from these treatments too.

    I’d really like to hear any follow-up too. I sincerely hope it all works out well for him.

  40. That looks.. That is.. Wow. I guess I WILL consider once more my future scarification..
    I hope he won’t have any more keloids from those scar tissues, cause that looks effin’ painfull. And spooky. And unhealthy. And… Well, you get the point.

  41. Interesting..

    This should really be added to the keloids page in the BME Encyclopedia
    (and I know I can do it myself, but I dont feel qualified to add them since I dont know anything more about keloids than what that page says.)

    I hope this guy ends up ok & I would like to read follow ups

  42. Ack poor guy, thats is NOT something you expect when you go to who is apparently a well known body mod artist. That being said personally I probably would have gone to a surgeon to get this pierced.

    This almost puts me off getting one done, but i’m willing to trust mysely to Lukas, when I have enough money.

  43. AJ — Nobody is “slagging off” anybody’s work here. That’s ridiculous. It’s not like we’re making fun of somebody’s tattoo or something. The critics here are saying — or at least I’M saying — that it was irresponsible for Samppa and Lukas to perform a fucking medical procedure that they had no business performing, just because somebody asked them to. Their intentions might have been good, but the fact that they went through with it is idiotic.

    So, yes, it is ENTIRELY fair and ENTIRELY appropriate to say that when heavy mod practitioners stop doing what they normally do and instead decide that they’re fucking doctors just because they buy scalpels wholesale, that it’s stupid and dangerous and extremely bad for the people who are going to get lumped in with them.

    And no, Teresina, it isn’t fine for what it is, because what it is is Soviet Russian back alley surgery, and it sets an incredibly dangerous precedent for any other moron who thinks he’s capable of doing discount medical procedures for friends.

  44. being scarificated myself couldn’t help to feel a knot in my stomach…
    i just hope that the removal works out fine for that guy…

  45. For everyone saying this guy should have gone to a doctor: I’m sure he considered that as one of his options, but realize that many professionals (not all but many) in the medical industry are weary and uneducated when it comes to body modification. The men he chose to help him are professionals in their own right. They are extreme body modification artists who are world renowned and have been doing this for years.
    As for sterility and the “inevitable infection” people have been operated on, in hospitals by surgeons and still had things go wrong. Medical supplies have been left in body cavities, breast implants have been inserted and grown huge infections. What I’m trying to say is this client chose the practioners he felt could do the best job for him.

  46. Eternal Ice, doctors were treating scars long before every piercer with a slow day decided to start doing scarification. The fact that some doctors are uneducated with regards to some aspects of body modification is neither here nor there in this case.

    And yes, of course things go wrong in hospitals, but an accident in a medical environment is far removed from two guys who are not doctors performing surgery in god-knows what kind of setting. It was the client’s prerogative to approach them, yes, but they should not have agreed to do it.

    If I need a tooth pulled, but I don’t like my dentist, I don’t go to the mechanic just because he has a wrench.

  47. So Jordan, you’re saying that if the guy didn’t had the money to get the keloids removed by a doctor he must have bin keeping it that way?

  48. The guy with the scars has every right to ask every person he knows to remove his scars. What I’m saying is that anybody who actually agreed to do it — who was not a doctor that would have done it in a surgical setting — is an irresponsible idiot.

    And as bad as the keloids were, my sympathy for the guy only goes so far. Anybody who gets this kind of stuff done should enter into it knowing full well that what they’re doing to their body is potentially very dangerous.

  49. I totally agree with Jordan. Not to mention that to attempt to remove keloids that size is at the very best absolutely pointless as the result is often bigger keloids and more skin tension, whether you go to a certified surgeon or to a body mod artist. (Common sense says though that the former is far more likely to do a better job than the latter). From my understanding, cryosurgery and laser treatment are better options than surgical removal.
    I would love to see a follow-up of this story as I’m willing to bet that the “customer” is not gonna be very happy with the result. I do hope though he escapes the nasty infection…

  50. i’ve had 3 surgeries within the last year and the shit i’ve seen doctors do as far as sterility has made me want to throw up. i personally hate doctors and try to avoid them as much as possible. i can’t say (and i don’t think anyone in here can either) what the right thing to do would have been. doctors don’t always know what they are talking about. i had to explain to a doctor about the implant in the back of my hand and how it was able to sit there without messing up the function of my hand. this was one week prior to that same doctor putting a silicone implant into my knuckle. maybe the procedure was a little too advanced for them to be doing. maybe it just looks much worse than it really was. i dont think it’s fair to call the practioners irresponsible idiots just based on a few photos without any real back story or knowing the circumstances.

  51. I haven’t seen the scars in person of course, but there are two arguments that I think should have been considered (and may well have — I’m not suggesting they were ignored) before resorting to a serious procedure:

    1. Scars take a lot longer than one month to heal*. I have seen scars that blow up huge (to the point where they’re distorting surrounding tissue uncomfortably) during the first year or so, and then settle down, softening and shrinking dramatically.

    2. It is also possible that steroid injections / creams as well as other non-surgical scar treatments could have dealt with it.

    * I should also add that it’s possible that this scar is one year old and that month was a typo.

    And I hope that Lukas or Samppa will comment if they’re reading this…

  52. I can’t speak in Samppa’s case, but Lukas is known by other artists around the world for having incredibly… umm….. “relaxed” views toward cleanliness, disinfection, and sterility. I have worked on him, and seen him work up close, and I can tell you that I’ve seen some frightening things.

    Anyway, there is no way to tell from the photos whether their gloves are sterile (or at least were sterile before use), so that’s a moot point. Regardless, it’s not of great concern. Control of cross-contamination issues is much more important, and that’s where training comes in. Remember, you’re only seeing a few out-of-context snapshots of what happened on this day, so it’s pretty useless to comment on cleanliness issues, unless there’s something obvious going on. But yes, they SHOULD have their arms covered.

    Betadine isn’t the only product used to disinfect skin… TechniCare, which many practitioners have switched to, goes on clear. (I see that there is some type of product being used.)

    As for the surgery itself, it looks alright considering the circumstances. Should the client have gone to a doctor? Of course. But that’s not always an option, for many reasons. Who’s to say that he didn’t consult a doctor first?

    The stitches don’t look half-bad, either.

    Smart move having the scars removed? Only time will tell. My scars take about 5 years to settle, so who knows?

  53. I am a big fan of Lukas and Samppa’s work. What they do, they do incredibly well.

    But, I agree with the folks who say it should have been referred to a doctor.

    I don’t care if the client does not like doctors. I don’t care if the guy could not afford a doctor. I don’t care if Lukas and Samppa had some personal reason for taking it on (Like, umm, I dunno, maybe they were friends with the original practitioner and wanted to clean up after him or something?)

    This is not a procedure that should be done by an untrained person. You can be a world renowned piercer/mod artist/scarification artist. Best in the world, even, and that does not make you qualified to do everything that involves the skin and a pointy object.

    It is not just about degree of training, it is the setting. In a medical center if something goes wrong, there is a whole staff of professionals ready to back you up. What if the client went into shock halfway through? Or got delerious from blood loss? Or started to sieze? Or had an MI from stress? For that matter what if one of the practitioners happened to pass out for unrelated reasons? How would they continue?

    In a medical center, there are the methods, systems, trained personell and equipment to deal with such things, whether it’s on-staff nurse anesthetists, central oxygen, a defribrilator or just other equally skilled personell to step in and assist or consult, when needed.

    Given that this client had a history of poor healing, either due to peculiarities of his skin structure and immune system or due to his aftercare, he was going into this with a very high chance of a less than satisfactory outcome. That chance rose when Lukas and Samppa agreed to perform the procdure they did.

    Oh, and, btw, if it goes wrong again, maybe even moreso, does the bod mod community as a whole really need another run in with the law, either when this guy’s insurance company forces him to sue or when the state/province charges the practitioners with practicing without a license?

    There are lstill lots of places where we have to fight tooth and nail to convince communites we are responsible business owners, not criminals. If this goes very bad, as it might, the adverse publicity will not help the bod mod community at all.

    One word sums it up: irresponsible.


    Where’s moddoctor when you want to read the view of a plastic surgeon?

    Actually…while we’re on the subject of scars, I have a cross on the back of my left hand (done when I was about ten years old :/) that’s rather faded twelve years on…

    It’s only about 1″ across…I’ve been thinking of strike-branding it.

    Good idea for the back of the hand?


  55. Speaking as someone with experience, there’s also the consideration that he didn’t want to go to a doctor because he didn’t want to be put in a mental institution. They still do that, you know.
    **Although to be fair, I don’t know where this procedure was performed or where the person under the knife lives. Milage may vary.

  56. penski, i was also wondering about branding in areas where there are viens close to the surface, and thin skin. such as the under side of the wrist.

    off topic i know, but any ideas any one?

  57. I’d like to know how many stitches it took!

    this is a mod in itself, scare adjustment! I can’t wait to see the result in a couple of months…

  58. There is no denying that Samppa and Lukas are some of the best in the bod mod field. I agree with many that I would love to see the healed product of this work.

    I love the second picture. I love how scar tissue looks when it has been cut through, (from personnel experience) it doesn’t ‘split open’ like flesh does – more just leaves a line. Seeing those wads of scar tissue is incredible.

    I know this is a method they use in ‘professional’ plastic surgery for removing scars. Cutting out the scar tissue and then sowing the wound shut for less of a scar.

    Absolutely amazing – one of the best modblog entries to date.


  59. For what I’ve seen Mr. Zpira and Mr. Von Cyborg are great artists, but in the same way that doctors shouldn’t pierce or tattoo because they are not qualified for that, artists should not engage in surgery, because no matter how prepared they are, they haven’t had the formal training, a lot of things can go wrong. Of course that the man being operated has the right to go and have the keloids removed by whoever he considers best, it’s his body and he has the right to do whatever he wants with it, personally I’d go to a doctor, but that’s me, his decission must be respected.

  60. Ultimately, I think we should remember that depending on where this was done, these guys are practicing medicine without a licence.
    They should not have agreed to do this procedure. It will be them, not the client, who will land in jail or with a stiff fine. So the client’s feelings about doctors are not an issue. Lidocaine in the injectable form is still a prescription medication. It should only be being used by or under the direction of a medical professional. If given at too high a rate it can cause heart arrhythmias.
    As a medical professional, I am very aware of the legal ramifications of this. If something goes wrong, they have no form of legal protection against any type of civil or criminal lawsuits.

  61. I agree with Nosimplehiway (comment 76) about the setting. Even if those guys were qualified surgeons, to operate in that context would be negligent.

    Penski – I think moddoctor has said in the past that s/he is a “cosmetic dermatologist” rather than a plastic surgeon.

  62. Shannon, those two points you made in comment 74 are both good reasons that these guys shouldn’t have gone ahead and done this procedure. I had mentioned a few of those non-surgical options in comment 59. As well as making the (potential) surgery easier, it’s quite possible that these treatments could have negated the need for surgery all together.

    I too would be interested in hearing from Lukas and/or Samppa.

  63. I echo the above “thanks for posting this, Shannon”. Some time in the future i want to get a stomach scarification piece, and those of us who’ve only seen good clean results need to have a different point of view like this shown to us.

  64. well, i met this gut today and scar looks really neat and he’s really really happy. He said that it’s amazing feeling that he can stad right again.

    Procedure itself was pretty easy altought that it needs about 60 stitches. And yes we used sterile cloves and sterile everything and about scalpel blades…(btw ausmoz, can u came up with ur real name, please?) we used(me nr. 15 as usually and lukas nr.11) and what was wrong with blades? u need two different type of blade for it.

    and about this quote: “Just look at the size of the keloid compared to the length of the incision/scar. It looks like the incision had to be extended signifigantly towards the nipple (and downwards to a lesser extent) due to poor planning and the skin not lining up – you can’t just sew a rounded cut like they’d made initially with sutures. The resulting scar is almost twice the length it needed to be.”

    obviously u don’t have any idea about this kinda procedures…or then u don’t have eyes on ur head? or then u don’t just understand. there was so much tension that guy couldn’t even stand straight and of course when u cut that keloid half, it getting much longer as there’s no ant tension anymore.

    and about stiches…i did exactly same thing what i’ve been teached by doctor (yes, i’ve learned from doctor. i haven’t been in medical school, like some ppl say that they been…but other than them, i can prove that doctors teached me to do all body modification and surgigal work what i can do now) and i used double stitches(don’t know right name in english, in finnish patjaommel), so there wasn’t much tension for those normal stitches.

    and about infection risk…of course there’s always risk to get infection, if u get any bod mod of surgigal procedure, but sad but true u get bad infection much easier from hospital tho.

    and we don’t think that we’re any doctors tho. we talked long time about should we removed or not and because it was so bad that it had to remove and this guy wanted me and lukas to do it instead any doctors and he totally understood risks, we deciced to help him.

    and like u all see, it didn’t bleed much and we had cautery just in case if it start bleeding. we didn’t have to use it tho.

    and we didn’t kicked this guy out after procedure. he was with us week under our control.

    and someone asked how we can know that it was too deep cut by that practioner who did this “scarification”….there’s a pics on iam of fresh scar and if u understand anything about scarification, u can see that it was far too deep, as u can compare those random lines with cutting and skin removal”

    anyway, now i’m gonna go to bed. i’ll keep posted about how it healing…so far it looks really good.

  65. I’m glad to hear that this man is doing well so far.

    In talking about the length of the incision, I was comparing the pictures that were taken after the keloid was removed (that is, when the skin was no longer under tension from the keloid – http://modblog.bmezine.com/wp-content/uploads/200610052007-pix4.jpg) to the apparent length of the closed wound (http://modblog.bmezine.com/wp-content/uploads/200610052007-pix5.jpg). If I’ve misinterpreted the pictures I apologize, but to me, the closed wound looks a lot closer to the nipple than the open wound.

    As for the shape of the excision, I think an “eye shapeâ€? with pointed ends would have been preferable to the rounded/elliptical shape that you used (if the intention was to suture the wound closed). As far as the amount of tension goes, as I said earlier, I wonder if hospital surgeons would have preferred to leave the wound open, packed and dressed it, leaving it to heal by secondary intention, rather than closing it at all. I’m not sure what they would have chosen to do, I’m not claiming to be an expert.

    I think the #11 scalpel blade was not a good choice for the excision. The shape of the blade promotes cuts that are too deep. While it’s not impossible to use (in that you can cut with it), it’s not a good choice – it’s more awkward to use than a rounded blade (like a #10 or a #20) would have been. I didn’t know that you’d also used a #15 (there was no picture). I think a #15 blade is a little too small, but it’s better than the #11. Speaking of the depth, in the first picture I linked, the “craterâ€? left after the keloid was excised looks deeper at the bottom half (where the blood is pooling) than the top half, which I doubt was necessary. Again, I may be misinterpreting the photo, but that’s all I have to go by.

    Whatever you say about sterility, the fact remains that you were not in an operating theatre. The patient was on a non-sterile bench. He was wearing non-sterile clothes. Neither of you were wearing a sterile gown, so your arms were not sterile. The fact that Lukas was wearing a ring indicates that he scrubbed his hands sub-optimally. Creating a clean environment is not something that should be done by halves. When not everything is as sterile as possible, it is of little consequence that some of your equipment was sterile when you started. There is no doubt that the setting in which this man’s operation was performed would have increased his risk of infection over an appropriatly set-up operating theatre.

    It goes without saying that if anything had gone seriously wrong, you would have been much less capable of dealing with it than a hospital with trained staff, appropriate medications, and life support.

    Having said all of this, I still think this man would have benefited from the non-surgical options that have already been mentioned, and from appropriate keloid minimizing dressings/bandages post surgery.

  66. I’ve tried to post a comment in reply to samppa 2-3 times now without success. I don’t know if there is some sort of delay that I haven’t experienced before when posting here, or if the comment hasn’t been sent successfully. I’ve emailed the comment to Shannon (at the glider at zentastic address). He can post it for me if he likes.

  67. Merde..

    Pourtant il avait l’air bien fait étant frais mais la croissance des cheloïdes est un peu anarchique..

  68. Ausmoz – I’m not sure why it put just those comments into the moderation queue… Maybe it was because of the length, I’m not sure.

    In terms of your question as to healing it open, I don’t see a doctor doing that, because then you’re almost certainly going to have a worse keloid than you started with. Procedurally I think the way the client was put back together was pretty solid and just as good as what you’re going to get from a doctor.

  69. I think Samppa raises and interesting point as well — while it’s true that you can get antibiotics more easily from a doctor, it is also true that had this procedure been done in a hospital, the statistical odds of a serious infection may well have been much higher…

  70. I think it’s really bad that the practioner who made this scar
    is unnamed. If Shannon doesn’t know who it was, Samppa or the guy who has these keloids or anybody who knows for sure should reveal his name.
    And whatever people say here about the risks of skin removal, the biggest risks are irresponsible wannabe bod mod artists who fuck up people like that and then can get away with it. Taking scarification seriously is to a big extent choosing the good practioner and avoiding the bad one, but how you can avoid them if they are “well-known” bod mod artists whose name is hidden when they ruin somebody’s body like that. I think it’s really incredible that it’s written that “it’s not the point of the entry to reveal his name” but to me that is!
    There was one mention of a probable mod artist who did this on this forum, well – i was considering of getting some heavy skin removal from him, and i’m not the person who doesn’t take scarification seriously, i already have a large skin removal. So for fuck’s sake – reveal the name of the practioner, hiding it is irresponsible as in this case it can happen to somebody else.

  71. It’s true that there is probably a higher chance of picking up an antibiotic resistant strain of S. aureus (for example) in most hospitals than in the community (depending on whether S. aureus is prevalent in hospitals in whatever country that was). BUT that’s not to say that this patient didn’t have a higher risk of infection (including with S. aureus) overall – that much is obvious from the pictures.

    I don’t think there’s any question that the benefits of being operated on in a hospital outweigh the risks.

  72. In the above comment (#102):

    “depending on whether S. aureus is prevalent in hospitals in whatever country that was”

    should be

    “depending on whether antibiotic resistant S. aureus is prevalent in hospitals in whatever country that was”

    Non-antibiotic resistant S. aureus is pretty much everywhere.

  73. Hi Ausmoz – do you have a name, or choose to remain anonymous for any particular reason?

  74. re: name of the practitioner…

    Just a theory…

    We don’t know the back story of the client getting the original scars. It may have been some wacky, experimental scarring that the practitioner had to be essentially talked into, with the clear understanding that there may be a poor outcome. The client may have agreed to keep the practitioner’s name quiet as a condition of it’s being performed.

    As far as infection and setting goes, there are two flaws in the reasoning on this thread: first is an appeal to probability, the idea that because some patients get infections in hospitals, that this patient would get an infection in a hospital. Second, that because hospitals sometimes transmit infections, that any setting other than a hospital is less likely to transmit an infection.

    Maybe I am misunderstanding the pro-Samppa/Lukas folks, but the reasoning on the second argument seems like it goes something like this:

    1. Hospitals are places where people get infections.
    2. This procedure was performed outside a hospital.
    3. Therefore, this procedure will not likely result in an infection.

    If I have misrepresented the argument, please correct me.

  75. If the original practitioner is named, will open and free discussion of ‘pioneering artists’ who have taken a stance of “you knew the dangers when I did the procedure. I will not assist you now that it has gone wrong.” be encouraged?


  76. Ausmoz – regarding distance from the nipple:

    Note that in the ‘open wound ‘ photos, his arms are raised, pulling the tissue of the chest upwards. He is also laying supine.

    In the ‘stitched’ photo, his arms are down. He is also standing up so gravity has a bit of an effect also.

    In my opinion, this is what has contributed to the incision appearing closer to the nipple.


  77. Firstly i would like to say that people (Ausmoz in particular) should stop sitting there commenting on what Samppa and Lukas should or shouldn’t of done, you were not there and you did not see the procedure, saying they should of used one type of scalpel blade or this type is just wrong, if you knew anything about Bodmod work you would know its what you feel comfortable using, and with their knowledge on Bodymodification, i am most sure they were the right implements. And saying he should of gone to a doctor, please have you seen some of the results coming out of hospitals these days, you are more likely to pick up MRSA or something, and thats not the point the guy in person felt more comfortable going to Samppa and Lukas. I know Samppa very well and am very good friends with him and have been with him assisting while he has done mod works and i can tell you his level of hygiene and knowledge on cross-contamination is a hell of a lot higher than in any hospital i have been to over here, and ofcourse they prepped before and scrubbed where they should, i would know i have seen him work before, how the hell can you comment on such things from only seeing a few pictures, you never saw the whole procedure. It really makes me pissed off that people just sit there and make such negative comments and say what other people should of done. Everyone is free to make there own decisions and his was to let Samppa and Lukas do this procedure, and they done a fucking good job at it, remember this guy couldn’t even stand up straight from the tension of the scars.

    And to say that a doctor may of left the would open and just dressed it and let it heal by secondary intention, what the fuck how the hell can you say that, do you realise the size of the wound? if anyone doesn’t have knowledge on these type of things then its the people writing these things. I have refered this to a family member of mine who is a surgeon, and what did she say, its the same that they would of done if they had a case like this, and NO THEY WOULD DEFINATELY NOT OF LEFT THE WOUND OPEN!

    Yes we actually saw the person last night who got the work done and i cant tell you how happy he is, its just such a relief for him and he is overjoyed at how its healing!
    Seeing it myself personally, its healing really well and the stiches look great, Samppa does the neatist stiches i have ever seen, and seeing this guy last night just proved that!

    All i can say is Well done to Samppa and Lukas, you done a great job, and being one of the few people here to have seen the results in person. Its always easy to just sit there and say what people should of done especially when you remain anonomous. Samppa and Lukas have extreme amount of knowledge on these procedures and have learnt from doctors, they would not perform the procedures if they wernt confident that they knew exactly what they were doing! Well done

  78. i actually felt sick looking at those pics…and i am a pretty desensitized person. it was the stitches…like the skin stretched over the stuff.

    sorry i know the convo has gone in a different way by now, but i am like…stunned.

  79. The people defending this on the grounds of, “They did it just as well/better than a doctor would have” or “The person would have been more likely to get an infection in the hospital” or anything like that is missing the goddamn point.

    Maybe Lukas and Samppa are brilliant medical minds and missed their callings as surgeons. I don’t know, but it doesn’t make a difference either way. The fact of the matter remains that, in spite of their relative skills or knowledge, they had no business doing a surgical procedure like this.

    It doesn’t matter what kinds of scalpels they used, how good their sutures were, or if they were wearing fucking hazmat suits for the entire thing. THEY ARE NOT SURGEONS.

    The problem here is that it sets a very dangerous precedent. There’s already a sentiment growing in this “community” that people, practitioners and clients alike, know more than doctors. This is bullshit. Maybe doctors are not quite as informed about certain aspects and particular things, but by and large, they know a hell of a lot fucking more than most other people with regards to this kind of stuff.

    Any asshole with a scalpel already considers himself a scarification “artist.” If what Samppa and Lukas have done here is accepted and applauded — which is just blowing my fucking mind, by the way — then what’s to stop that same asshole from thinking he’s a fucking surgeon?

    People are going to start dying, and other people are going to start going to prison (as well they should), and everybody involved will have fucked any chance of legitimacy for more extreme modification procedures. So think about that when you decide to cut somebody’s torso open in your studio, or when you support somebody who does.

  80. Can’t it be seen that this entire procedure was, in base terms, just large-scale skin removal? Neither artist proclaims themselves to be a doctor, but both regularly perform skin removal without great uproar.

    If arguments are flying that no bodymod practitioner has ‘business’ performing serious fixes like this, then surely we are back to the stage of questioning if former body piercers should have ever picked up a scalpel in the first place…?

    I do not ‘applaud’ the procedure, nor condemn it; however the client was obviously comfortable going to Samppa and Lukas with the intention of having the keloids removed in the same manner as a skin removal. Medical politics should not come into it.

  81. The original practitioner was already outted as Howie. Many sketchy proceedures and minor aged recipients have gone under his blade.

  82. Nosimplehiway – I don’t think anyone has used that as an argument; it’s more of an aside comment.

    Jordan – The problem is that if you’re going to say that *this* procedure goes too far, you have to say the same for ALL forms of implants and most forms of scarification. Are you willing to say that?

  83. yeah what i have to say sort of echos what shannon just said

    i mean everyone is flipping out about “oh god it was a surgical procedure and blah blah they should be doing it”

    from what i see it looks like a skin removal, or if anything else similar to a nipple removal just abit larger

    this procedure is rahter tame compared to some things that are done really

    so they shouldnt be doing medical procedures right ok then, so no more implants, no more transscrotals, no more tongue splitting, no more ear pointing, and it goes without saying castration and ampuation are out

    and hell dermal punching and scarification are out too, cause well its useing a medical device so its practicing medicine without a license

    something that was mentioned that really was never taken into consideration is there is a very good chance if he went to a doctor with this they could and probably would try to have him commited for self harm, and you know what for all we know he could have went to a doctor and they refused to help him

    and there is a good chance thats is what happend, most doctors do not know or understand what we do and will refuse to do anything that crosses the bondery of whats normal for them

    i guess the point really is, you dont know whats going on till you get the whole story, and making blanket statements is dangerous to our community and well freedom to do what we want

    people pretend that this is something they do everyday, no it was an extreme case that in my opinion had to be done to help a person live a better life, well not even an extreme case cause people are blowing it way out of proportion as useal (drama queens)

  84. jordan, jordan, jordan…where to begin with just how wrong you are?

    first of all, doctors are not the only people qualified to perform medical procedures. nurses perform a huge number of surgical procedures. paramedics also have the ability to perform quite a few emergency surgical procedures. there are countless other individuals…midwives, bush medics, even witch doctors…that are either self-trained or taught through exposure who are far more experienced and qualified than an MD to perform procedures such as this.

    secondly, the type of mods that lukas and samppa do ARE medical procedures

    next, neither of them have said or insinuated that they will ‘stop doing what they normally do and instead decide that they’re fucking doctors just because they buy scalpels wholesale’

    continued next comment…

  85. “i guess the point really is, you dont know whats going on till you get the whole story, and making blanket statements is dangerous to our community and well freedom to do what we want”

    This sums the entire thing up PERFECTLY. Thank you, Pauly.

    Hell I know of people that have been almost commited for suspending in a public place, because the ‘authorities’ didn’t “understand” why we would do that to ourselves, so I can only imagine what would happen IF this person went to a hospital. Once again, we dont know the WHOLE story and while everyone can certainly voice their (very valid) opinions, what seems to start off as opinions seem to work their way into statements and ‘factual arguments’.

    Maybe it seems like I’m talking out of my ass, but stuff like this concerns me, as well as the entire body mod community. Alot of my work has been “surgical procedures”, a number of dermal punches (biopsy punch = surgical), scalpelled piercings, tongue split, scarification, so Shannons’ question to Jordan is certainly one that I await a response to.


  86. If the original artist was in fact howie, I would like to say that I have personally seen some of Howie’s scar removal (a smaller scale of what happened here) and I was blown away by the results.

    There is alot of talk about what is acceptable and not acceptable by “extreme body artists” in this thread, and I think people are over generalizing both sides. This whole thing is a gray area. When does a scar become to large for a top artist to remove? This procedure is midly more dangerous then some extreme procedures that are done on a very normal basis imo.

    What zpira and samppa did may of been borderline, they said the client was under their supervision for a week however. It’s not like they just did this large procedure then flew out of town and let him to fend for himself.

    And as for talk about which blade is more suited. Zpira’s has the ability to weild a scalpel and do some pretty fancy cuts in on some sort of tai-chi fluid motions. I’m sure his scalpel choice did not endanger or hinder his work on this client.

  87. I’m sure Jordan will answer on his own as well on different points, but playing devil’s advocate to my own question there are two main differences:

    1. This procedure involves the removal of a large amount of tissue. That makes it legally problematic in many countries, both in terms of the procedure itself and the disposal of the tissue. (This also affects skin removal scarification, but not implants).

    2. (and this is the main one:) This is a procedure that doctors do, and are trained to do. That doesn’t mean they can do it better, but it means they can make a legal case that it’s their “territory”.

    As I see it, this procedure (which appears to have been done as responsibly as possible) is not “more intense” than others that have been documented here and on BME and elsewhere, but it does involve some legal “technicalities” that could make it problematic.

  88. While it is true that this community often supports unlicensed practitioners performing procedures like castration, trans-scrotals, tongue splitting and others that should be in the purview of organized medicine, that is because the medical community largely refuses to perform them on an elective basis.

    When someone approaches a cutter for those procedures, both parties understand that there is virtually no other way to achieve the same effect and therefore are willing to accept the higher risks associated with an unlicensed practitioner.

    But in the case of this procedure, the client could, had he chosen to, gone to a physician. More precisely, I think it’s safe to assume that since the client had pain and reduced function, had the unlicensed practitioners refused to perform the procedure he would have been forced to use legitimate medicine… which is superior to other forms of treatment. (Sigh. A point I am just tired of arguing… if you think hospitals are such hotbeds of incompetence and cesspits of infection, then burn your insurance cards and have “I refuse all medical treatment, take me to a piercer instead” tattooed on your chest. Any takers?)

    The reason unlicensed practitioners are rarely called on to perform breast augmentation, rhinoplasty or the removal of a benign skin tumor is because the legitimate medical community provides these procedures.

    Underground cutters should be an option of last resort.

    As for the new pic… I am far from an expert, but that looks like a big, but not exceptionally huge, skin removal. Did something unsual happen to promote the keloiding? And is it maybe time to quit dancing around the issue and get the client on here to tell his story in his own words? What happened during healing? Did he have a history of heavy keloids? Why did he not go to a doctor?

  89. I have personally had a scar removal on my chest. I wish him all the best of luck. I went to many plastic surgeons whom wanted nothing to do with me, and tried to give me over the counter remedies that did nothing for my preexisting scars. I really should submit my pictures.

  90. Pingback: When scarification goes bad! at Jonathan’s Weblog

  91. I firmly believe that this is going too far, and I am unwavering on that point.

    That said, I think a lot of other practitioners go too far with procedures that people here just accept as “extreme” now, as well.

    There is a lot of very, very dangerous stuff being done now about which neither clients nor practitioners know nearly enough.

    What it comes down to is this: At what point are we going to admit to ourselves that the danger that people are putting themselves in outweighs the benefits one might receive from looking the way he or she wants to look?

    If things like this are setting the standard for acceptibility, then the industry needs to be regulated. Sorry, but it’s the truth.

    You need licenses to do things far less dangerous than implanting objects under peoples’ skin and removing large chunks of flesh from their bodies. I have no ethical or moral problems with a certain degree of medical training being required by anybody who wants to facilitate more “extreme” modifications. If it stifles the industry, so be it. I’d rather have a much smaller, more contained group of practitioners whose expertise and qualifications can be depended upon than an open market where you don’t know a butcher from a master.

    The “community” is much, much too secretive as it is, all in the name of protection. Protection of whom? Of ostensibily well-renowned “artists” who cause people serious bodily harm? Because the industry relies so heavily on reputation and cliques that if you dare criticize somebody, you’ll have a throng of their sycophantic customers jump down your throat? This is madness. And I’m not saying it’s exclusive to body modification, but god damn it, if you get fucked up by an implant, there’s no way to file a malpractice complaint!

    If this industry doesn’t make any attempt to save itself, then it’s going to find itself in a deep pile of shit, and it will have nobody to blame but itself. And it will deserve all the shit that it catches as a result.

  92. do you have any images of his tattoos? they have potential to be the most amazing tattoos i have ever seen!

  93. It’s my opinion that nobody here has the right to determine whether this or any other procedure is “right” or “wrong”. If two (or three, in this case) consenting adults take part in an extreme medical procedure who are we to stop them? If I have the right to pay a doctor to cut open my chest and insert huge implants, why can’t I pay a cutter to do the same? Of cut out a chunk of skin, or cut off my genitals? For that matter, why can’t I pay some random guy on the street to stab me in the gut? It’s my body; I can and will do what I will with it. The fact that what the other guy does to me may or may not be legal is an entirely separate issue, but one that’s based on the first.

    I also don’t feel that cutters are under any ethical obligation to clients, except when it comes to minors, people who are obviously incapable of making safe choices, and the obvious responsibility to see that the procedure is done in the safest and best manner they can do, and that the client recieves proper care after the procedure so as to maximise the potential for proper healing.

  94. Yes it was Howie at the Swiss mod meeting in June 2006, and the client was iam:bastien. But before everyone starts bad talk about howie: he refused to do a procedure on me (magnetic finger implant) which Steve Haworth, Emilio Gonzalez and about 5 other mod artists told me personally that they would do it. And told me nothing about possible risks. Some months later, Shannons article proved him right.

    I too think that bastien should tell his story. We don’t know if he pushed the mod artist into doing it, we don’t know if his body has a increased tendency to keloid.

    Thanks sammpa for explaining the thing about the deepness of the cuts.

  95. This is one of the more interesting threads we have seen on here in a long time.

    Only problem? My finger gets tired scrolling allll the waaaay down to the latest post.


  96. Jordan:

    I’m sure from your statement that the “authorities” could easily wrangle up some obscure documents of tongue piercing infections causing death, statistics on hep c linked to tattooing etc etc etc… where do you think the line drawn could be? you’d be opening up a very large hole that everything worked so hard to achieve could easily be sucked into.

  97. I don’t understand the arguement. The client has every right to get a cutting. I’m sure he knew the risks involved. The whole purpose is for the SCARRING…it just so happens that it’s a risk he took and unfortunately it did turn for the worse. However, the practictioners who removed the keloid had every right to do it. I’m sure going into the initial scarification he knew risks, as i’m sure he knew there is a risk when getting the keloids removed. People are looking into this way too much. People will perform procedures their own ways, it’s up to the client whether or not they agree with and want to go under the procedure.

  98. Wow. For someone like myself who has bigger scars due to actual surgical procedures (some ten feet or so) from heart and various other incidences, I can tell you how horrifying you all are to sit there and actually buy into this shit that these fucking fools think they are “artists” because they hack into people’s skin and make pretty designs.

    I’m all for the do what you want with your own body mindset, believe me. But the fact that there are less than educated hyped-up younger folk reading this shit and thinking, wow, man, I could totally do that, it’s so cool, makes it completely wrong to be complicit with-not only for putting it up, but for advertising these faux skills of a bunch of fucking hackers.

    Wouldn’t it be a totally novel idea to maybe even get a basic nursing degree? Wouldn’t it be amazing if these guys actually got a fucking education as to what they were doing…not just metaphorically, but physically to the victims that pay them? This is not like 9th grade where kids pierced their ears with burnt tip safety pins. This is the real deal and all of you fucking tools who buy into this shit as appropriate are asking for it…either through staph or whatever infections might claim your life. Arguing over blade size and sterilization wouldn’t be necessary if you all actually trusted these goons knew what they were doing.

    I can’t wait for these guys to end up in jail. It’s an imminent danger, and maybe someone has to actually die before the wheels are set in motion.

    But I ask you, would you really trust a guy whose grammar and basic spelling skills are less than someone who is 14 to cut into your skin and do some of the most obviously unprofessional sutures I have ever seen? I wouldn’t trust someone who would actually type a statement like this out: [(Procedure itself was pretty easy altought that it needs about 60 stitches. And yes we used sterile cloves and sterile everything and about scalpel blades…(btw ausmoz, can u came up with ur real name, please?) we used(me nr. 15 as usually and lukas nr.11) and what was wrong with blades? u need two different type of blade for it.]

    Not to pop the bubbles of all of you kids who think you need to morph into other things besides the human beings that you all happen to be…but honestly, guys, THINK about what you are doing. I can’t tell you how often it is that people with less than stellar egos, people who might not have the self-confidence that they might perceive the average person to have, do these things to their body and then sit and whine and complain that “everyone makes fun of me…how can they judge me”. This is the mirror complaint that they had BEFORE they underwent these “modificationsâ€?, yet now actually have the ammunition to validate it.

    You might try something actually useful, like spending your hard-earned cash on some fucking therapy before you go buying into this “idea” that cutting yourself up is going to make it all better.

  99. Looking at the original skin removal, with exception of the cutting in the middle, I wouldn’t have guessed that the side ones would keloid like they did.

    I’m glad this guy got relief. I see this procedure the same as typical skin removal work. But this is a cautionary tale. It just hilights the risks of scarification that people should be aware of in the first place. Scarring can be unpredictable, you really have to know your own body, and even though people can heal differently it’s still a good idea to research the artist and look at before and after shots.

  100. Regarding post #95

    The sutures placed are called mattress sutures and are commonly placed to help relieve tension on a primary suture line (Just some FYI for Sampaa). Note previous post about pattern. However, other tension relieving techniques may have been helpful, as it did still seem kind of tense.

    In the future, rings must be removed if you are even going to begin to use aseptic technique. Consider investing in a gown and drapes.

    Regarding healing by secondary intention:

    With a primary surgical site that is not grossly contaminated, there is no reason (for a SURGEON) to not perform primary closure. Delayed primary closure and closure by secondary intention should only be used in the case of contaminated or infected wounds or if a wound cannot be closed with out a skin graft without being under undue tension.

    It was healing by secondary intention, which is what scarification is all about that caused this problem in the first place.

    Regarding skin removal in general:

    I just don’t believe it should be done AT ALL (I know I am going to be flamed but don’t care). Skin is a precious resource. The way it heals cannot be compatible with most peoples artistic vision. I have posted previously about my concerns with contracture and loss of mobility and I am sad that it was seen out.

    So many more things to say, but too tired to fight. It is not going to change anyone’s mind anyway.

  101. this is why scarring is retarded. if you want a scar that badly just get cancer or something like the rest of us instead of trying to be “badass” , its pathetic.

  102. sweet jesus! those go all the way to the fatty tissue,eep!

    i’m between being really jealous and being really thankful because none of my scars are tht bad.

  103. shannon: you just posted a link to the (i believe) original cuts done to the guy’s torso. that’s some mighty intense scarring, be it one month later, or a year. i’m rather curious now if he’s had a similar reaction to any other cuts, or if he’s had any done before.

    i’m glad things are going in the right direction for him now.

  104. Wow…one comment that always gets on my tits is when people say, as a means to justify their behavior “They knew what they were getting into when they got the cutting.

    Guess what folks….there’s not a person here who can say with certainty, that they are aware of what they are getting into when they get a scarification. If this individual did then he sure as hell wouldn’t have gone through with it, would he?

    People…this is NOT a dainty world. There are a ton of pics on here where the scarring looks horrible. How many of these people who get this done actually ‘test’ their bodies to see what might happen, since they have no basis for comparisson and everyone scars differently?

    Still, it certainly makes me never want to get anything intentionally scarred. no one to tell for sure WHAT might happen…even if the results are good.

  105. Hmmmmmm speakin of Howie being professional. Is this the place to bring up his broken beer bottle scarification piece. Or how about the time all the girl wanted was a heart scar and he decided to do that plus scar her for life by putting an H in the center to leave his mark. Just because she could not see what he was cuttin on her at the time due to the area? hmmmmmmm Howie any comments

  106. From my standpoint, as someone with a massive (perhaps the largest save for Corinna?) skin removal — done by Lukas Zpira no less — as well as probably more scarification than anyone else, I’d have to back up the person (iam:bastien) with his choice to have this done.

    Sure, neither Samppa nor Lukas have any sort of medical degree (I’m assuming). And sure, it doesn’t seem to have been performed in the most sterile of environments. And sure, he most certainly could have died as a direct result of having such a large wound. Then again, so could I. Here’s some video (also available on Google Video) http://modblog.bmezine.com/2005/12/05/high-res-scarification-video/

    The thing is, what about people who take unknown drugs from “friends”? There’s most certainly a very real element there of death. I’m not talking about kids, I’m talking about adults who elect to imbibe chemicals from a total stranger, the origins of which are usually highly suspect.

    I feel that the above scenario is not too different from this keloid removal, although it would probably be viewed in a different light. That’s just my two cents on the “ethical” arguments given thus far.

    In regards to why such a large, handicapping keloid developed I’m not surprised at all. The picture Shannon posted SEEMS to be somewhat deep, I agree, although I’d need more angles/closeups, and even then I’m no expert. But more importantly, the area in which he was scarred is the clue. Areas where the skin has more movement will scar heavier than those areas whose movement is little. Have you ever seen a keloid on someone’s skull? I haven’t!

    His ribs and stomach area especially have massive movement. Look what happens to your stomach when you sit down. I know on my torso my stomach area scarred much more than, say, my chest. Here’s a pic:

    Anyways, I don’t think that the industry is becoming more ballsy in its approach; on the contrary, I think the recent professionalism has made practicioners more practical when it comes to more “extreme” mods. People have been bisecting their penises forever, it’s only nowadays that there’s people to go to who are even remotely sterile.

    It’s too late now, bed time for me. Sorry if none of this made much sense.

  107. re: Comment 134:

    “But I ask you, would you really trust a guy whose grammar and basic spelling skills are less than someone who is 14 to cut into your skin”

    Deanna – could you re-post what you had to say in fluent Finnish with full grammar and correct spelling please?

  108. I would just like to state that us saying he should’ve gone to a doctor is just about the same as a mother telling her 30-year-old son not to get another piercing. Granted, the procedure and risks are on quite different levels, but if the person is of a secure state of mind and capable of making their own decisions, who are we to judge? And if they are not capable of making their own decisions, should they be commited to a hospital? Then who draws the line?

    I personally think that two people should well be allowed to kill and eat each other for all I care as long as a) they’re not harming anybody else and b) they have a written contract in case something happens so the consent can be proven.

    But I’m very much against BB anyway, and that’s just my opinion. I’m sure the politicians will know my rights better than I do.

  109. Deanna (Comment 134) – Samppa is Finnish, and English is not his first language which would explain his imperfect spelling and grammar. HOWEVER I have never quite been able to connect the issue of spelling with the issue of being a good practitioner. That seemed like an irrelevant attack.

    The main thing that I’ve been thinking about as I read the posts is how many modification procedures which are becoming more and more common are potentially as dangerous as the keloid removal procedure.
    Whether this means that we (as the modified/modifying community) should step back and re-define what is ‘safe’ or acceptable, or we should step back and up the sterility, or step back and consider other options all together, I do not know.

    This post has certainly made me step back (and I think many of you stepped with me…) and re-think the risk levels of my planned modifications.

  110. time to say something …
    ok , wen bastien came to me asking to remove hes cheloides, I didnt say “yes” … just “maybe, but it s going to be more dificult than you imagine… let me think about”. after a while, we both agree that another advice was necessary. samppa came to us. THE 3 OF US talked about the procedure and we finaly decide to perform it .
    let me explain you something jordan . this wasnt our first procedure … I dont bulshit you talling like some other that I’ve been in medical school for years , but I start doing body modification 10 years ago, enouth to learn some “basics”, while you were still playing with your ungrow penis, try to guess is purpose.
    so we did the procedure, in a studio simalar at other studio that people use to do subincision and other pretty hard procedure . everithing we used for the procedure was sterile, and even if the procedure was a bit dificult for everibody , everithing goes right . we did one side only . we decide to wait a couple of days , see how things are going before to do the other side . everithing goes right , so we decide to remove the second cheloide 2 days later . in the same spot and again all we use was completly sterile . like for the first part, a 3 person help us during the procedure.
    after that, we decide to put bastien under antibiotics for 10 days, and to make him wear a medical corset to avoid all execives tensions .
    bastien stay with us during a couple of days after the procedure , almost a week, and we check everiday if everithing was corect . and beleve it or not, we didnt got any other problemes . no execive bleeding, no infections …
    bastien will come in this forum to tel you hes point of view, and we will keep you updated .
    but man , stop coming to this page to colport fucking gossip ! the point her is not to kill anybodys reputation …
    thats always drive me crazy wen I read coment like :
    “but Lukas is known by other artists around the world for having incredibly… umm….. “relaxedâ€? views toward cleanliness, disinfection, and sterility. I have worked on him, and seen him work up close, and I can tell you that I’ve seen some frightening things.”
    who are you asshole to say bulshit like this about me ? thats just gossip. and pretend that you worked on me on the top of that !
    the only people who worked on me are : steve, howie, samppa (and tom for a scalpeled neeples that I didnt keep). your just a pretentious liar.
    I dont have anything to prove about my work . what I did during the past and still doing now talk for me .
    so if somebody got something to say about the procedure and the legal issue, he can tel it. but if you just have to talk shit about anybody, go back play with your playstation .
    so, yes I agree this procedure was legaly border line . but what about subincision, transcrotal, nipple removal, implants etc ….
    I call all theise procedures “body hacking” . is nothing legal with hacking . so what ?! why shall we respect some laws made by people who still beleve that man should be like god made them ? why should we respect laws made by people who just want to take the control of our destiny ? theise laws will soon make illegal facial modification to beter control us via biometric system . are you going to respect that ?! who is going to make the regulation about body mods ? george buch governement ?! sorry Im laffing . are americans going to send some troops to arrest bodmods artist in other country ?! come on baby , think a bit by yourself and stop whatching cnn , ok ?

  111. re:comment 134 again:

    “I’m all for the do what you want with your own body mindset, believe me. But the fact that there are less than educated hyped-up younger folk reading this shit and thinking, wow, man, I could totally do that, it’s so cool, makes it completely wrong to be complicit with-not only for putting it up, but for advertising these faux skills of a bunch of fucking hackers.”

    Deanna – apart from all the emotive crap you wrote (something to do with empathising over having involuntary scars from surgical procedures “some 10 feet or so” from your heart), what are you suggesting here? Censoring this so that “younger folk” don’t see this?

    I get the feeling somewhere down the line that you missed the point: this post is about keloid *removal* (hence the deeper cutting) from original scarification gone wrong, not “this is cool shit to do to your own body”. There is a valuable lesson to be learnt here and censorship is besides the point.

    Two questions though: Where is yttrx on this issue? what does howie have to say for this?

  112. the keloids are not the result of a bad artist… they are the result of the body producing excessive scar tissue… had nothing to do with the artist… and the center scar is not on the sternum, it is on the abdomen… hopefully, he won’t scar up as badly this time, but the potential for more keloids is there, because since he had them once, he is prone to have them again… 8-)

  113. First, I wanted to thank Lukas and Samppa for adding to this forum.

    Second, I wanted to say that I thought this quote (paraphrased from Lukas) was great: “Nothing is legal with body hacking — so what! Why should we respect laws made by people who still believe that man should be like god made him? Why should we respect laws made by people who just want to take the control of our destiny?”

  114. Micehell – I am fairly certain that the top part of the scar is over the lower part of the sternum. Obviously I am aware the entire thing is not. I think we all know where the sternum starts and ends.

  115. deanna, scarification is not what people have done to ‘make things all better’. that is called ‘self mutilation’, and it is a very big difference than people who choose to alter their bodies. self-cutters do it for relief of psychological pain. i’m sure that every person in this forum who has undergone scarification, branding, tattooing, piercing will agree that they did not do it for psychological pain relief.

    my apologies if my grammar and spelling are not to your level either. like lukas and samppa, english ain’t my first language either.

  116. Well with just moments from catching a taxi to head to Toronto and get more of my arm scarification sleeve completed…This has certainly wasted much precious time I could have utilized, in getting to Toronto earlier. haha

    We can all argue till the cows come home about this procedure, because we are on the outside of the looking glass…Based on the quicksnap photographs that someone took documenting the procedure. So you can’t tell anything from the pictures, other than what is vaguely going on.

    Sammpa gave us a run down of what went on…I’m inclined to believe Sammpa, why lie publically about this stuff? As it’d only severely tarnish his reputation as a bod mod artist. However before Sammpa posted, all we had to go by was nothing…Since many of the people posting, save for a few, have little to know understanding/knowledge of any of this topic.

    Judge not least you’ve walked a mile in the shoes ALL individuals in questions.

    FYI: for anyone who supports Sammpa and Lukas with the phrase: “They are GREAT BOD MOD ARTISTS!”

    If I remember, not long ago on Shannon’s page this was discussed already…But if you forget…SOME OF “THE WORLDS GREATEST BOD MOD ARTISTS” HAVE SERIOUSLY INJURED THEIR CLIENTS TOO!!!!

    And we’re talking LIFE THREATENING too, close to death…Not leaving them scarred or nerve damage…

    I know and admire both Sammpa AND Lukas, so I will never argue specifically against them…However personally, if it was me, I would have sought out proper medical attention…I would have FOUND a doctor who would do the procedure…I would have MADE SURE they used proper aseptic technique with everything sterilized and prepped properly.

    As for putting people into mental wards, that’s purely subjective and based entirely on WHERE you specifically live. In small backwater towns, possibly…But in HUGE mega cities such as: Toronto, NYC, London,etc you will NOT be subjected to such ignorance…At least nowadays.

    I remember one day after BMEFest I had a friend seek out medical help for anti-biotics after a procedure they had done…They saw the doctor, showed them the mod and the doctor was very open an asked MANY questions and acted like: “Oh ok well lets treat the problem”

    Also to the person who wrote that perhaps the individual in question TALKED THE ARTIST INTO DOING IT, AGAINST THE ARTISTS WILL

    I call utter and complete bullshit! As a piercer if I have clients come in that I feel are not anatomically adequate to have a navel piercing, I TELL THEM…If they try to talk me into it, I REFUSE!

    Artists should not give in to the clients demands. If the client wanted Howie to cut deeper than what is desired…Howie should have flat out told the client: “NO!”

    Ethics and Morals play a HUGE part of what artists do. Coupled with our skills that’s ALL WE HAVE. If we feel doing something to someone might be dangerous, WE SHOULD LISTEN TO OUR LIL VOICES IN OUR HEADS AND REFUSE!

    Now people will come back an say: “yeah but if one refused, he’d just search until he’d find one that would”

    But again that falls under ethics…Hell I’m sure I could find someone to locate a dead hooker and have a horse fuck it while a kid strokes the horses ballsack…It’ll take some time, but I’m POSITIVE I could…Doesn’t mean I SHOULD.

    Clients are sometimes ignorant and know NOTHING about modifications, other than that they want them.

    Artists are often trying to maintain their artist cred and do the next craziest mod and stay “on top” and reveared by all as being: “THE ONE”

    Clients should investigate/research the risks…Artists should TELL the risks….Sometimes things just SHOULDN’T be done.

    Anyways I’m glad Sammpa and Lukas managed to help him and he’s doing much better…In the grand scheme of things now, that’s all that really matters.

    We can argue and debate this shit till the cows come home. It will sadly NEVER end.

    But WILL end is my rambling on this topic as I’ve spent almost an hour rambling, when I should be heading to Toronto to get my inner bicep cut.

    EXPECT PICTURES SHANNON!!!!! Unless you wanna come by an say hi hahaha!

    We’re gonna carve us a Warren Turkey!

  117. Look, the fact of the matter is, with Lukas and Samppa doing this procedure, it’s shown that there is no ceiling to what body modification “artists” think they’re capable of. And considering the danger that they already put clients in with ostensibly less complex procedures, that is a very scary thought.

    I know Lukas was mentioning lots of stuff about government subjugation and blah blah blah (not to mention my infant penis, which seemed unnecessary, but hey — c’est la vie!), but come on. Why do people in this industry think they’re special? You need a license to work in a fucking nail salon — how does it make any sense that ANYBODY can pick up a scalpel and start cutting people?

    It doesn’t. It makes NO sense. It’s getting to the point where, as a friend of mine said last night, it’s time to throw the baby out with the bathwater. “Artists” have been exploiting a system that they think doesn’t know they exist, except there’s a problem: There is NO way that authorities aren’t aware of this. And the people who get busted will not be victims of some government conspiracy to make sure we don’t tattoo our fucking faces: They will be victims of their own idiotic actions and their choice to not go through the proper channels to ensure that what they were doing was at least semi-legal.

    The industry, in its current form, is not sustainable. Not by a longshot. Whether the industry tries to police itself or they keep barrelling towards insanity and wait for the feds to do it remains to be seen.

    In short, nobody here is special or more enlightened or more evolved than anybody else. Not because of your body modification choices, at least. And the fact that practitioners think they can skirt SOUND, FUNDAMENTAL LAWS just because clients ASK THEM TO … well, who are the capitalist pigs now?

  118. fucking jesus!!!! are u so fucking idiot that u really thinking that i cutting in english???!!!!! I’m cutting in finnish:)

  119. I think many are jumping the gun with bashing Lukas and Sampa. How can you comment on them correcting this mans procedure without seeing the results 3 – 6 months down the road. They may have done a great job and relieved this man of a great deal of life long pain and restriction without costing him $10,000 – $50,000 in reconstructive plastic surgery. Lukas and Sampa didn’t go into this procedure blindfolded, they drew on years of experience and research to coordinate a procedure to keep him safe and create an end result based on experience and knowledge of hundreds of former procedures. Think about how many surgeons guess on their first procedures after graduating from school on a limited hospital budget, They didn’t do that. They were experienced and knowledgable enough to preform this procedure, license or not. Many certified surgeons screw shit up until their union kicks them out ( 10 – 20 ) or their lawyer tells them they can’t afford to defend them. How is that better. Lukas and Sampa are going off success, not hiding behind a university degree.

  120. Yeah, I know his first language is not “Engrish”, but I would also say that if you were going to go about defending yourself in English to people who read English, you might want to try and have a friend who speaks it and can edit it properly do it for you so you don’t sound like a ten year old.

    I would have had much more respect for someone who could have defended themselves in an intelligent way, without resulting to hurried ways of conveying their message. I have been flamed on various occasions about my opinions on scarification and branding, simply because I feel that I earned mine, the old fashioned way. Through months and months and years of pain and suffering, what I have on the outside of my body is a direct reflection of what has gone on inside my body…and yes, I do know that people get them as a reflection of inner pain that they have suffered, or to symbolize events they need to recall. And I say all the power to them. I have no issue with people undergoing procedures for surface skin decor. I myself have much coverage on the tattoo front. But this whole thread was about SURGERY. When did surgery become appropriate for these artists to perform?

    Surgery, by most accounts, is not something that body modification artists claim they can do, nor should they. I’m hoping for all of you who love this stuff that a renegade clot doesn’t get released into the bloodstream from such traumas. This can result in a nice stroke or pulmonary embolism… at which point all of the decoration in the world is not going to save you.

    I do notice nobody counterpointed my intelligent suggestions because it would simply be too fucking “conservative” or “selling out to the man” to do and get the education you would need to perform these procedures in a safe and sterile and appropriate environment. They have heart monitors in surgery for a reason. What if a problem had arisen, what if there was an allergic reaction to what they used to subdue the pain? I’m sure they had access to a medicine cabinet and a pair of paddles right?

  121. Jordan:

    According to you, Lucas and Saampa should be incarcerated. So, why would it matter what they charged to risk their own asses to help someone better themselves?

  122. Silent/159 – Jordan got hired because he’s smart, funny, a great writer, and understands BME’s goals. The points he’s raising, while I don’t personally agree with all of them (but I’m well known as falling on the “rebel body hacking” side of the political fence), are very valid.

    Deanna – I think you didn’t get a response to some of the points you raised because they’re old hat. I’ll say again that what differentiates this procedure from other heavy mods THAT NEARLY EVERYONE (at least in BMEland) SUPPORTS are technicalities. The concerns you raised are a concern for many other procedures.

  123. Shannon:

    I don’t dispute Jordan’s writing capabilities.
    I never realized BME’s goal was to incarcerate some of our more talented body artists.

    I don’t agree with saying that because it isn’t legalized by our government means that our body is not our own to do with what we please.

    Going to these artists and having them perform some of our inner desired needs that plastic surgeons won’t touch with a ten foot pole or having you go through years of councel because it must be psychological is non sense.

    Semi-legal is still not legal. Having Lucas and Saamba gain nursing qualifications. Would then make it alright in the eyes of Jordan for them to be performing heavier modifications? Where does it end?

  124. Nevermind that. How about where does it begin?
    Will we then be stepping backward 10yrs, possibly further?

  125. Silent–Poor sally stitches, is something I’ve heard many times over. Try again. Point being my pain and suffering were a RESULT of said surgeries, not something I was trying to exercise out by cutting into my own flesh. I would guess that if you had your sternum cracked open twice, you would wanh wanh wanh. I, on the other hand, never did.

    Shannon. This is where we disagree. And being a part of this community for as long as I have (since 1999), I have heard the arguments..but these are not technicalities but realities. When you are cutting down through all layers to the fatty tissue, this is something that can happen. AS well as potential allergic reactions. When you are not in a hospital setting where all of the possible exepected and unexpected outcomes can occur, you run the risk of seriously fucking someone up.

    And Jordan is probably the only one who has been consistent in defending his stance. He does not have to agree with what the majority here think simply because he writes for the zine. I would assume that all of you might respect that–there is no need to agree with all arguments, much like I suspect most don’t agree with my point of view. The point is, there are MANY points of view, and opinions, which have every right to be expressed.

  126. Looking at the original picture of hte fresh cutting, it does look a little deep, but not as deep as the center cut, and not nearly as wide. In my opinion, Howie isn’t totally at fault for the results of Bastien’s scar, as it seems he’s someone who just happens to be prone to huge keloid scars.
    As far as the corrective procedure, as a body mod artist myself, I wouldnt’ have attempted to do anything to this, but if Samppa and Lukas were comfortable doing it and felt confident that they could help Bastien fix his problem, and he wanted them to do it, I don’t see the problem. Yes, cutting him that deep to fix it is a bit more extreme than most scarification, but it really isnt’ that much more dangerous or more surgical than transcrotals, amputations, castrations, etc that people elect to have body mod artists do all the time.
    And to the people that are complaining about Jordan, he has a right to his opinion as do you, and he did write some great articles on BME, so bashing him for his opinion just because it isn’t the same as yours is pretty ridiculous.

  127. we did this procedure for free. I don’t need money so badly that i start charging money from guy who really needs help.

    and deanna: i don’t give a shit about ur respect. and if u can respect only bod mod artist who’s first language is english, then it’s ur own fucking problem, but make sure then, that u don’t get any bod mod from ppl from other countries.i’m sorry that my scalpel don’t speak ur language. And do u know what, i don’t have do defence, i made my client happy and that is only thing what i care. i don’t care about virtual losers like u. Or online doctors, who can tell everything about our procedure from a few pics.
    I give free advice to all online doctors, get a life, go out and find something better to do. This procedure is not much different than big scarification, or some other big bod mod work.

    and “jordan”: all bod mod artists who have done big work understand that our procedure wasn’t really major surgery. But for ppl who don’t know anything about these things and see only few bloody pics and see some fat tissue, thinks that this kinda procedure needs at least 10 surgeons to do it and 20 ambulances for waiting outside if something goes wrong they can drive this chopped poor guy to another hospital

  128. Silent – Obviously it isn’t. Jordan has moved on from working for BME and speaks for himself in this thread. As I said, I don’t happen to agree with him in this case; I suspect my view is much closer to yours in fact. But that doesn’t mean I don’t respect his opinion. Jordan is a very smart guy who is deeply aware of what goes on in this community and industry… Even if you don’t agree with him, it’s worth considering what he says because a lot of other bright people are going to agree.

    Deanna – I’m not saying those risks aren’t real; I’m saying that Lukas and Samppa (and Bastien too I assume) are perfectly aware of them and their implications.

    …and as Stainless pointed out, this is certainly no more risky than “piercings” like transscrotals. I’d actually suggest it’s LESS risky than a transscrotal…

  129. Oh Samppa. You are doing yourself a disservice to even respond to these comments if that is what you have to say for yourself. If you believed in what you did so firmly, I would assume you wouldn’t bother.

    But to wrongly state 10 surgeons were necessary. And 20 ambulances, I would say that your ending statement shows how much you care or know about what you are doing. The “poor chopped guy” you worked on is lucky to be alive if this is how little you cared about his life.

    I wouldn’t get body mod from ppl from other countries because I’m fairly sure I know more about human physiology than u do.

    Do yourself the service of not responding if that is what you come out with. I’m not sure how many people have read this and have new hope for your talents.

    And all I can say is, if even one person has reconsidered going to a body modification artist for surgery, then my opinion is completely valid.

  130. Shannon. Just one more thing…

    Being aware is great. Making sure other people are aware, their potential clients, is something that needs to be reiterated to ensure EVERYONE knows what is and what is not possible.

  131. who is the most able to do this procedure … a doctor , because he got a license , or a bodmod practitioner whos working since a decade specificly on wounds, implants, cheloids, skin problemes etc ?!
    Ive seen many doctor praticing wrong procedure . actualy Im really scared about what they do . a licence is just a licence . thats not mean that you are beter than other . that just mean that you are protected in case of mystakes . and they are doing a lot of mystakes … after 10 years of practicing our speciality, we should have as well a licence probably :)

  132. Re: “I wouldn’t get body mod from ppl from other countries because I’m fairly sure I know more about human physiology than u do.”

    Oh come on. That’s just ridiculous. Only Americans can do body modification?

    And this guy isn’t “lucky to be alive”. The procedure had risks, serious ones, but I wouldn’t put it in the “life threatening” category. In terms of procedures that are common, this is far from the most dangerous. I’ve literally seen THOUSANDS of procedures more dangerous than this one.

  133. Adding to what Lukas said, I’ve seen doctors severely mess up procedures related to body modification on a very consistent basis. Obviously there are many doctors who are bodmod friendly, and even involved, but the vast majority do not like or understand what we do.

    I’ve seen more bad advice and bad procedures from good doctors than I have from underground practitioners. And that’s a disturbing statement on so many levels.

  134. “Oh Samppa. You are doing yourself a disservice to even respond to these comments if that is what you have to say for yourself. If you believed in what you did so firmly, I would assume you wouldn’t bother.

    But to wrongly state 10 surgeons were necessary. And 20 ambulances, I would say that your ending statement shows how much you care or know about what you are doing. The “poor chopped guyâ€? you worked on is lucky to be alive if this is how little you cared about his life.”

    If he responds, he does himself a ‘disservice’. If he doesn’t, he appears uncaring and maverick. Lose-lose?

    Where do you interpret that Samppa doesn’t care about the safety of his clients? I think both he and Lukas have made it pretty clear that they care enough to undertake both the procedure and monitored aftercare with complete seriousness.

  135. Please realize that Deanna is godliness in earning her scars. Ours are mere plies of pitiful attention and self mutilation.

    This topic is foreign to her.

  136. Shannon,

    I wouldn’t do it period. My body modifications, though necessary to sustain my life, were done by surgeons at hospitals. The last open heart I had done was by someone who had been doing them since 1968. This is not an american versus a non-american thing.

    And yeah, we are all aware of the risks that come with going into the hospital for surgery. I had a stroke after that open heart, not due to the surgeon’s lack of skills, but because unpredictable things can happen when you are dealing with people on an individual basis. No two bodies are alike, and reactions cannot be predicted as such. But I was in the hospital, and they had the tools necessary to resucitate me. They were ready for EVERY possible outcome, and these guys definitely were not. They were basically just hoping for the best…using their ten years of skills as justification that they knew what they were doing.

    My point being in the defense was that he is not doing a good job defending himself if he does so with rage and insistence. When you are basically advertising your skills or knowledge, or lackthereof when responding, it would probably be a good idea to address points and not try and attack people on a personal level because you don’t know how to justify your means to the end.

  137. Silent,

    The topic is not foreign to me. I have very close friends who have undergone these procedures. I’m not some secretary hiding behind her cublicle not understanding the plights of people who choose to go through with it. We have discussed it and we all respect each other’s opinions. But we allow each other the space to express them and appreciate our points of view that come with different experiences.

    I have an opinion that differs from yours. And I wouldn’t negate your feelings because of it. You, on the other hand, have used some spanky little comments to try and express your opinion, which is completely invalid to my argument.

  138. I was under the impression that radiation therapy was the only way to cut down the chances of keloids coming back. Since this wasn’t done in a hospital I’m pretty sure that this guy doesn’t have this option.

  139. Deanna – So what you’re saying is that you’re commenting on a subject that you’re ignorant of and have no experience with? I don’t mean that to sound rude; what I mean is that I don’t think you really understand the context of these procedures and are giving feedback that’s a little irrelevant and off base. Comparing open heart surgery with scarification? Telling people they should get therapy instead of body modification? Give me a break!

    That said, I agree with you that responding with anger is a mistake.

  140. Good grief, Shannon. You know the people I have called friends, and some of these people who have undergone serious, serious body modification, have lived in my house. Not being someone who has undergone the extensive body modification procedures does not make me ignorant. Jerome, Xeon, and Faulkner–all have stayed in my home. And I have called them brothers and close friends regardless of what they choose to do with their bodies.

    And therapy, yeah. I truly believe it should be a possible alternative option to be explored. Not because I think that people who seek this expression need to be institutionalized…but because when you are young and your mind is still being molded, certain things seem bigger than when you are an adult.

    And for those who want to discuss these personal issues or differing opinions outside of this thread…My iam name is deAa. Go hate me there and leave these forums for what they were intended for.

  141. “If the original practitioner is named, will open and free discussion of ‘pioneering artists’ who have taken a stance of “you knew the dangers when I did the procedure. I will not assist you now that it has gone wrong.â€? be encouraged?”

    It has nothing to do with knowing the dangers, it has to do with the bodmod artist (Howie) cutting too deep, being not qulifiyed enough for doing skin removals and still doing them.
    Seroiusly, it’s not something he will put in his portfolio, and why the fuck as a potentional customer should I see only his successful works and not his mistakes? He should take a responsobility for everything that he does, that’s fucking just. Showing off the ok works only (not much in his case) and hiding failures like that is simply mean. And please – the people who say that the original artist has nothing to do with it and the keloid would form like this anyway – just give me a break. Read the entry again – it was cut TOO DEEP.

    About all the “legality” discussions – the biggest problem for me is that society/system/gouvernment decides for you what is legal and right to do to your body.
    If the implants,scarifications and whatever heavy mods were offered, researched and encouraged by medical industry the same way as breast,nose jobs and lypossucions most of the problems discussed here wouldn’t exist. The core of the problem is that official medicine rejects and supresses body modification and people who want to modify themselves not in the established norms, thus pushing those people outside of it. If people could get heavy body modifications by doctors in hospitals and bod mod artists could work in the same professional conditions I think most would do so. It’s so biased to blame the bod mod artist for practicing surgery without medical education and not the fascist system and official medicine who firsthand create this situation.
    And there is so much hypocrisy in all of that – if we talk about plastic surgeons, there are so many disasters happening – people dying from lyposuccions, getting paralyzed and loosing limbs due to the badly done breast implants etc etc.

    The only problem for me in this case with bod mod artists is that some of them just jump in a bangwagon and do things they don’t know how to do. It’s not a matter of the official medical degree, but skill and experience which Howie didn’t have. As for Sammpa and Lukas Zpira, they have it and in this situation they did pretty well.

  142. Deanna – Well, since you mention Jerome, he’s been involved in a LOT more serious procedures than this one. So has Allen. Xeon most likely as well. The fact that you say they’re your friends “despite what they do” suggests that you don’t really even respect them. And it certainly shows you don’t understand them.

    Kivaka – The perfect Kivaka response :)

  143. And Deanna, if you think that body modification is done as a “therapy” and in order to resolve some personal problems, it’s because you’re so obsessed with yours and need therapy yourself so badly that you can’t imagine people practicing body modification for other reasons. You’re missing the fucking point. Many people didn’t make it for therapy or healing – just because they love and enjoy it.

  144. The idea that Howie cut too deep is only the personal opinion of Lukas and I. However, it was not so deep that it was a danger to the client or a very obvious mistake. I have seen much more deep and risky scarifications with no keloid at all. You have to factor in placement, skin type, and there is always the risk that someone’s skin will react in a bad way. There is no way to predict that.

    We didn’t want to make Howie look bad by providing pictures. In fact we had no intention of saying who it was in the first place. We just wanted to use the pictures as a way to show some of the more serious complications that can be caused by scarification as well as ways to correct them.

    The procedure that we did was not a big or risky. Anyone who has done procedures, including doctors, should understand that we just removed a piece of skin and put the remaining skin back together. It’s as simple as that! Lukas and I both have done 1000s of stitches so it’s not as if we were trying something new for the first time. I didn’t see any risks more than you would see from any other procedure. The procedure itself was sterile and the follow up was and continues to be extensive.

  145. ok guys, i think i have to talk about this fucking problem

    first, i have to thanks again lukas and samppa for this work and tell that i feel fucking great now. the scars look good, and that i had absolutely no problem from the beginning of this procedure to this moment i talk to you,

    second, i fucking not understand why those kind of photos take a place in this site, cause i have to tell everyone that all those pictures was post without my permission, but well,

    third, and the main point, to all the persons who post bad comments about everything, LETS TALK SHIT about the way
    this problem is not yours and it s only mine and samppa, lukas too. Mind your own business, specialy if its only for saying that SHIT.
    now, i am fucking disappointed about the way bodmod, speciallly on this website, turns. at th beginning, all the modify persons asked other to be openminded and we are here for bullshit, specially all the gossip who do absolutely nothing, exept spending hours and hours talking problems they really dont know.

    so, now, i am really fed up about his story, and to close it, i only will say, that, because i really dont accept how those things can turns, specially on bme, i wont be anymore on this site, and only leave it to all the fucking gossip you do, and all the fucking squareminded you turn.
    thanks a lot for waste my, and other guy, time ( specially about my FRIEND lukas)
    now do something

  146. Well said, Samppa.

    And Bastien, I can answer #2 — the photos were sent by Samppa. I’m sure he meant no offense in doing so, and no one expected we’d have this reaction.

    And I think that boycotting BME because you don’t like what a few READERS of ModBlog had to say is a little silly and definitely unfair.

  147. Bastien,

    I’m glad that you responded about how you feel. At the end of the day it is your body and your happiness. You have a right to choose what you want to do with your own body. You also have a right to choose who does what you want. I am happy you are feeling well and that Lukas and I were able to help you!

    However, like Shannon said, boycotting BME is not the answer. The fact of the matter is that no matter where you go you will find negative people. You can’t keep them out of everything. On BME there are far more accepting, supportive people than a bunch of negative assholes.

    I also want to explain that I sent in those pictures in because Lukas and I as artists have a right to show our work and we felt that this was something that was important to share with others.

  148. deanna, when you start making ‘intelligent suggestions’, i’m sure lots of people will counterpoint. so far all you have suggested is that you are an angry and bitter american who wants to lash out at everyone and anyone for your misfortunes.

    please enlighten us with your qualifications in human physiology.

    by the way, the majority of the surgical procedures i’ve performed have been on the ground covered by a plastic sheet. to scrub up i use antiseptic flash gel and wear latex gloves. and i’ve yet to have anyone come down with a secondary infection.

    it’s quite clear the only one defending themselves with rage and insistance would be yourself.

  149. overall moral of this so far for all those just joining us -

    questionable procedure done by zpira and sammpa (like lots of mods)
    man is ok so far
    people are mad
    and deeana is insane, bigoted against non americans and in generel seems largely unstable.

  150. I think this episode should be bringing modification artists and enthusiasts together to consider what licencing requirements should be. Because things like tongue splitting, subincising, et cetera, are being done, we should be thinking about how to make sure these procedures are only being done safely. Rather than badmouthing doctors, more of an effort needs to be done to reach out to them so that there will be more medically licenced people available to do elective procedures which should only be performed under aseptic operating conditions.

    Education and communication should be encouraged, rather than secretiveness and one-up-manship.

  151. hahah.

    You all are entirely too much. There has been no indication of any rage in anything that I have written, but it’s up to you to make your own interpretations.

    Again, it shows a certain level of maturity to go and shoot judgements about someone you know absolutely nothing about aside from comments she has posted regarding an opinion. Opinions I had every right to state, and had shown every aspect to be supported—

    You can call me whatever names you want, insane, bitter American, whatever it is that may make you happy. Personally, I could give a shit, and I did give you my iam name to follow through with your threats and judgements instead of littering up the thread with it.

    I would suggest we all respect the wishes of the young man who underwent the procedure and shut the fuck up already.

    You won’t catch me reading any responses to this or anything else you might have to sling at me.

    And Shannon—I’m fairly sure that the friendships that I have held and the people who have lived with me should be making the judgements about my loyalties, not you. Sorry if that comes off as rude, but what you stated was out of line.

  152. I just don’t understand the anti-education sentiment here. Some of you are acting like it’s an insult that I feel that heavy mod practitioners should have formal medical training to an extent.

    Investing in human capital has NEVER been a bad thing, and if the next generation of doctors are mod-friendly, it will be because people who are into this kind of thing will become doctors — it will NOT be because the medical profession starts allowing random practitioners to practice medicine without a license.

    I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I think the APP was right in disassociating themselves from heavier procedures. An industry like this needs order — people’s lives are LITERALLY at stake.

    Why would anybody be offended at the prospect of there being formal accountability for high-risk procedures? Why would anybody oppose a system that ensured that clients would have access to practitioners who have a certifiable amount of knowledge and prowess?

    Proper reform might lead to the toppling of the industry as we know it, but big deal. It’s a phantom industry, anyway.

    Nobody here is entitled to anything — it’s nobody’s God-given right to be a scarification artist. Piercing and tattooing have done due diligence in earning the legal right to do what they do (in most places), but the heavier mod practitioners have made no such effort. They seem to think that just because people ask them for things, that they have every right to do them. This has not, nor will it ever, be the case. People can’t just have and do everything they want.

    So, really, go sell your anarchy bullshit somewhere else. If you don’t like the rules, there are proper channels to go through in order to achieve change.

  153. Until Allen, Xeon, and Jerome post and say they’ve lived with you and say you’re a decent person, I’m operating under the assumption that you’re simply an anonymous poster making it up.

  154. Bastien – First of all, thanks for making your statement clear on the matter.

    I noticed that the heart under your right nipple and the small ‘side-cuts’ (both visible in the ‘fresh’ photo provided by Shannon) also seemed to keloid rather heavily.

    Do you feel that the scar tissue involved was more to do with the cutting itself, the position of the cutting, your body’s own healing process or a combination of the three? Had you noticed keloiding/heavy scarring from any other procedures?

    Please note that I am merely curious – I am not trying to be agressive or disparaging in any way. :)

    I know that personally I have never keloided despite some pretty heavy-duty cutting (including 8″ long slices on my belly that went well into fatty tissue…close to 1/2″ deep). In fact, I always end up with white/silvery slightly raised or slighly sunken scars. With this knowledge I would feel far more comfortable taking the next step and undergoing more involved cutting/skin removal.

    Importantly, why the hell is everyone screaming at each other? Chill, have a cup of tea (sweet, precious tea..) and converse like civilised human beings?


    PS: I have a cheese sandwich. This makes me the most important being on the planet for the next….two minutes? ;)

  155. Jordan – If they have formal medical training, they can’t legally do these procedures without losing their licenses in many Western nations (they could do THIS one, but not non-corrective ones). Certainly not in America or Canada. That is why doctors had to stop doing tongue splitting (the ones that do it these days have to do it “underground” as well).

    And yes, someone does have the right to their own body. I don’t think it’s fair to write that off as “anarchist bullshit”. It’s the most primal of all rights. And if we don’t have the right to ask someone else to manipulate our body, we don’t really have the right to our body.

    Certainly laws should be in place to protect people from negligence and misdirection and so on, but there’s nothing to suggest that anything like that happened here. This procedure does ultimately boil down to whether or not people have the right to make decisions about their own body. Certainly there are arguments that we’d all be better off if the government wrote laws telling us what we can do and have done to our bodies as you suggest, but as long as we support that, we don’t really have freedom at all.

  156. Regarding Mr. Zpira in post #180, the numbers appear to be much higher than a mere 1000 a year. See http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol7no2/wenzel.htm; I don’t have enough understanding of statistics to really understand that article, but another article published in the LA Times in 1992 (http://www.aegis.com/news/lt/1992/LT920704.html) suggests a figure more like 80,000. The most serious problem with infection acquired in hospitals is that they tend to be resistant to antibiotics. So, while your odds of getting an infection in a non-OR surgical environment may be higher, the infection that you might get would be more likely to respond favorably to conventional antibiotics.
    Perhaps someone would care to comment on a curiosity of mine: I’ve noticed that xylocaine can be purchased over the counter in Canada by anyone. I would presume that this holds true in some other countries as well, although obviously not the US. Why would an injectable anaesthetic be sold over the counter to anyone if it’s illegal to use it without a medical license? To me that seems a little like saying it’s legal to buy/sell heroin, but not legal to shoot up.
    Further question: If part of the problem with scarification on the stomach is the movement of the area, would restricting/eliminating torso movement during the healing period (with a back brace, or a corest, perhaps?) work to reduce the likelihood of keloid scarring?
    All this aside, I’m happy for you Bastien. I’m glad that it worked out well for you and you are more comfortable now. It’s nice to know that you’ve gotten the results that you wanted. Congratulations to you and Mssrs. Zpira and Von Cyborg for a successful procedure.

  157. As is continually pointed out, 50% of smokers eventually die from complications related to the cigarette product… Why is that universally considered a right (even if you think people should do it in their own homes), whereas the right to choose one’s own body modification path isn’t?

  158. “licence, regulation” etc all this is just bulshit . what will worth your american licence in europe or where Im now in africa . is no way to create a worldwide licence and anyway who will decide ? even if i dont get any autorisation to practice , I will still practicing , and even if I dont get licence, people will still coming see me . the only thing is to be inteligent enouth to do the best we can . and of course , people who want to talk shit will have more to say in the futur , beacause of course in some point we will do some mistakes like most of us probably already did in the past . so what ? we work with the body and nothing can be 100 % perfect . Im tired to hear people take the first occasion to talk shit about pratictioner while they are quietly sit in the front of theire computer just trying to find something to say . I have the pretention to be able to change some little things in this world , and you know why ? just because I tryed and still trying and not stay just looking what others do to find the best way to put them down . I dont give a fuck about the respect of some people that are not anyway even part of my world . I dont do what I do for respect, glory or money , even if I apreciate wen people respect me and help me to live with what Im doing by paying an average price of 500 bucks .
    I dont get payed (and dont want) for this kind of procedures…
    now look the world around you .
    how much do you think a “regular” doctor will charge for this kind of procedure ?
    how many doctor give just a bit of their time to help peole in nead ?
    how many doctor are doing wrong procedures ?!
    how many people die every year in the world cause of wrong procedures ?
    how many of them do what they do for make big money.

    so , give me a break

  159. Shannon,

    Xeon lived with me for several months, Allen came to visit.

    Jerome is a good friend of mine…but has had some distance due to our different schedules, and because we live so far from each other..

    And Ferg is my friend as well…You can call me an anonymous liar if you want to, but my point is you can be an adult and have a different opinion from someone you care for…and not be a “bad friend” as you seem to infer. I have always valued the different people I can call friends because of that fact–we all live different lives with different opinions.

    And I pretty sure Phish wouldn’t call me an asshole either.

    But I am not here to defend who my friends are and for what reason…it’s our business and certainly not of the collective group.

  160. And did I say that exclusively? Nope, but for young kids, I would encourage it before they thought of getting a surgical procedure from someone who is not a doctor.

    And if they put up photos of themselves doing surgery for all the world to see, it would be no different. I would disagree and argue in much the same manner. The point being we have all talked about this before…and everyone knows my stance on it. It seems to be a suprise to you only.

    No matter. There’s no reason to argue MY frienships with you.

    We can go round and round and round. There’s no point in me bothering any longer. I deal with these guys on my own time. There is a world outside of BME.

    But thanks for not censoring these opinions I have which are so different from the collective group. I mean that.

  161. I’m not sure there’s much point in me responding to this, seeing as people don’t really seem to be listening to each other, and most of the views I have have already been expressed (mostly by shannon). But you all get to hear my opinion anyway :)

    Personally, if this guy had come to me with his scars, I’d have sent him to a doctor to try other methods of scar removal before considering surgical excision, and even if those methods had failed, I wouldn’t have been prepared to undertake this procedure.

    However, this doesn’t mean that Samppa and Lukas were irresponsible to take on this job. If it had been done in a hospital in an OR on an entirely outpatient basis, then yes, there probably would have been a slight reduction in the risk of infection, but if it had been done on an inpatient basis, the risk of a more serious antibiotic resistant infection would be greatly increased. There is a risk of infection every time the skin is broken, and the risk increases the larger the wound is. Stitiching the wounds closed, and providing a course of prophylactic antibiotics was a sensible way to reduce this risk, and monitoring the client closely for the first week while the wounds began healing helped ensure that any problem that arose could be dealt with.

    Yes, if problems had arisen during the procedure, depening on what the issue was, a fully equipped OR would probably have been better placed to deal with them, however the chances of such problems arising is very slim, the client was fully aware of the risks…and these risks are considerably less than with other modification procedures commonly documented.

    If you think this is something that only doctors should be allowed to do, you are entitled to that opinion, but i personally think that the procedure is less dangerous/likely to result in infection than a transscrotal piercing, a large skin removal, or even a transdermal implant. If you are of the opinion that these procedures shouldn’t be performed by mod artists either, then fair enough, otherwise i think to vilify these artists is a little shortsighted and hypocritical. There are lots more potentially dangerous things posted on modblog, and most of the comments tend to be ‘wow that’s cool’, rather than suggestions that the artist shouldnt have attempted the procedure.

    I’m not even sure that all doctors would even have performed this surgery in a fully equipped OR. I have seen footage of licensed surgeons (in the US and Europe, I’m not talking about 3rd world countries here) perform facelifts and other surgical procedures in a room that looked like a consultants office, with paintings and bookshelves and other furniture that made it clear that it wasn’t an operating theatre. When doctors are going into a body cavity, I am sure that an OR would be used, but for work just centering around the skin, many doctors feel it is unnecessary.

    I also think blaming the original artist for the outcome of this piece is a little unfair. Yes, from looking at the fresh pictures it wasn’t the best skin removal i’ve ever seen, and it was too deep, and in an area of high movement, but i have seen (bad) work done just as deep heal with no keloiding at all. There is a large genetic factor involved in the formation of keloid scars, so while the original piece wasn’t great, it was far from guaranteed to heal in this way.

    My main concern with surgical keloid removal is that if the client is prone to keloids, they often recur. Having the area as immobilsed as possible with a medical corset was probably the best way to try and ensure the area didn’t move too much and add to the likelihood of further debilitating scarring.

    In short, while this is something i would never attempt myself, i don’t think it is fair to suggest that the practitioners who did it were acting dangerously. The client chose to see them for the work, was informed of the risks, and was closely monitored. I strongly believe that we have the right to do what we want with our own bodies (and that mod artists have the right to assist us, or refuse to, as they see fit). Whether the law agrees or not should be a consideration of the artist and client, not simply a reason for people to claim it shouldn’t be done.

  162. Having read 211 posts, most of which were repeating themselves multiple times to stress points that needn’t be repeated to the n-th degree, I feel I have to say something. It won’t be eloquent, it most likely won’t make much sense, but I want to say something.

    The fact that money, and the cost of this procedure, was dragged up is quite rude. How much is made is not relevant – the comfort of the patient/client and success of the procedure are what are important. The fact that this was done without a cost to the client says a lot more than if they had made money from it.

    I think that as long as Bastian is happy with the procedure and the way it was handled, that Samppa and Lukas are satisfied with the results and there have been no complications, I think that is really the end of the argument.

    Other than that, I believe people should be able to choose what to do to their bodies, and whom they enlist to help them. And if people start ruining the reputations of the people who have experience in what they’re doing, all it leaves are the people who do hack jobs and endanger people, which in the end is far worse than one procedure that upsets a few people.

  163. The points raised here are getting lost in character and profession bashing..which is kind of tedious.

  164. A good scarification artist is in my opinion more qualified than most cosmetic surgeons to deal with a situation like this.

    I’ve seen egos become too much of an issue with doctors. Thinking that they are so much better than any piercer, implant/scar artist, that they lose sight of logic, and the ideal end result.

    A scarification artist would be emotionally invested in HELPING the situation to give not only himself but his art a good name. Plus they are specialized in dealing with scars.

    Doctors end up playing the blame game. (not all, but most)

    That aside.
    Fucking OW!

    I have 1/3 of my body covered in scar/keloid tissue. A lot from skin grafts. No fucking picnic. The itching that scarring creates alone. Holy shit. Not fun.

  165. I think it’s also important to point out, that a doctor would lose his liscence in the US for doing anything to detract from the human form. So technically, we shouldn’t consider implants, tongue splitting, etc, a medical procedure. It is body modification.

  166. I haven’t taken the time to read all the comments simply because its a huge mishmash of opinions, worthless whining and opposing ideas. So i’ll just toss mine in there.

    I absolutely support the situation in the pictures above. Mostly because i can definitly see how this person would have a hard time finding a dr who would actually do anything with those scars. Many dr’s won’t fix something they haven’t damaged themselves, because since evidently this person keloids easily, it can be a great liability to the repairing dr if the removal simply flares up the tendency to keloid and the guy ends up with a worse scar.

    Also, I fully support both body modification doctors (i call them doctors, because a dr, is someone who has the knowledge and the specialty to deal with a certain area of medicine. Minus the diploma, these two have the knowledge, experience, tools and the ability to deal with an emergency. I strongly beleive that he was in better hands with Zpira & company than with a medical doctor.

    My opinion isn’t unfounded either. As a nurse in a clinic and pharmacy, i see everything, and hear everything. The incompetency rate of doctors in today’s poor healthcare system is enormous. In Canada, you have a 75% chance of being mis-diagnosed and sent home early with improper medication and symptom control. (stats canada 2005)

    I therefore trust that a body modification “doctor” can most likely do a better job of mody mod-related problems. Because of the eggshells bodmod practionners tend to walk on in different countries/states/provinces, i fully believe that both of the practionners shown in the pictures not only know what they are doing, but are prepared for ANY problems. I see no problem with this picture. And anyone who enjoys a piercing, a scar, a tattoo, shouldn’t see a problem either.

    You either support your way of living, your beleifs in body modification, your piercers, your tattoo artists, your scarification artists, the community that supports these actions should therefore support advances in the arts of body modification.

    That being said, I’ve WAY larger chunks of skin removed for large scarification peice. this guy is a no more risk for infection as the next person to get a large scarification peice. Its not the DEPTH that counts, its the skin. Your skin is the largest

  167. Shannon – I’ve never had any major surgery fortunately, but I did have a mole removed by my doctor last year….her knowledge of cross contamination was minimal, and the sutures were done too tightly and the wrong way. If it didnt need to be sent off for biopsy, i would have much preferred to have removed it myself, and i am sure i could have done a better job.

    My only real experience of surgery was a friend who needed a fairly extensive procedure after a car accident we were in. The hospital was almost brand new, and was very well equipped. Sadly he still left with an MRSA infection. While of course the doctors saved his life, it would have been nice if the other hospital staff knew how to wash their hands/clean the rooms properly.

  168. Flying is dangerous because of terrorists. Oh, more people die every day in normal city traffic than flying? Well who cares, flying is still dangerous.

    Oh, and the spelling vs. intelligence argument is pure bull. Usually with people who argue that… Well, if you spelled everything 100% correctly they’d find some other excuse to dis and argue rather than listen. I personally couldn’t give a rat’s ass over an argument like that, and I’m pretty sure a lot of others in this discussion won’t either. If somebody really thinks that another one’s poor spelling makes them less intelligent or knowledgeable somehow then it really is person #1′s problem, not the poor spellers’.

    I personally think a lot of this discussion is simply about having respect for others and their decisions. Others have it, others don’t. If after what you’ve contributed to this discussion you feel a slight sting, you’re probably of the latter type.

  169. . i realised i didnt finish my sentence, two posts ago..

    your skin is your largest organ. a cut opens it to bacteria, even the “good’ bacteria that protects you can get into it, and kill you (flesh eating disease is a good example). anyways, point it. deep or not, its surface area that matters. ive seen bigger done by a mod artist

  170. Y’know what I’ve only just noticed?

    Bastien has the most beautiful, cleanest, most solid black arms I’ve seen in years. Literally.


  171. Asurfael: damnit. you stole my point! :)
    Seriously, do you sterilize every single cut you have? A small cut has a pretty damn close statistical probability of getting a potentially dangerous infection as a large one, but at least the large one might get some appropriate attention in terms of infection control. As a nursing student, I see some pretty non-aeseptic things done within hospitals, and I certainly agree with anyone that has said that a MD license is no guarantee. Plus, every country has it’s own requirements of what is necessary to become a doctor. Obviously, there is no gold-standard for what qualifies you to slice and dice.
    Personally, I would be thrilled to have an opportunity to get work done by Samppa or Zpira, as they are great practitioners who, from what I’ve seen and heard, care a great deal about their patient’s safety and satisfaction.

  172. holy shit… that was a long read… i dont see what the problem is…

    the guy came to them for help, and that’s what he got! how many doctors would have done that for free, and stayed with him for almost a week!

  173. all of you have missed the point. its not about what happened after the fact but that his retarded self decided that getting scars was a good idea. people who encourage this type of behavior should not be allowed to procreate

  174. wow, what a novel. when i saw this entry post i knew some major bickering was about to take place, but at least this is something worthwhile of discussion.

    thanks to shannon for posting this, it’s good to see the bad results along with the good. hopefully it will make people very aware that there are always risks to these procedures.

    i have to say i’m a bit suprised most people don’t understand what jordan is trying to say. obviously this man has severe problems with keloids, and as far as i know if someone is prone to getting them it’s quite likely it will happen again. if he does develope them again the results may be far worse, and really put the 3 original practitioners in legal danger. i really hope for everyone’s sakes it heals up fine and there are no problems, but we should all at least be aware that there could easily be severe legal or health repercussions if everyone starts attemptimg major reconstructive surgeries on people with known health risks.

    i do in fact think it’s everyone’s right to do what they want to their own bodies, but i honestly think it would have been more ethical of the artists to tell this man he needed to see a cosmetic or reconstructive surgeon. it sounds like they were just trying to help, and i applaud that, but it would be a real shame if things ended up worse in the end because of their kindness.

    as for the money issue, i think people need to keep in mind that any mod might have severe complications and require medical care of some kind. if you can’t afford to provide yourself with this care you might want to think twice about getting the mods.

  175. Someone, I personally believe that people who believe in supernatural things shouldn’t be allowed to procreate, but that’s my opinion, if he wants to get scars, or get an amputation or whatever, it’s his body and he has the freedom to do whatever he wants with it.

  176. this should be ended with the following:


    I’m freshly cut and all i can say is who cares, lets move on…Whats said is said and what’s done is done

  177. For me, the issue is not this particular procedure, but the lack of uniform standards that arise when there is an unregulated industry.

    While it is fun to wave your fist in the air and declare yourself some of sort of freedom fighter for bodmodding, the fact is we live in a civil society ruled by civil laws decided through a legal, democratic process.

    The fact is that even if you are completely qualified to perform this procedure, even if you have all the most advanced professional equipment available and have obtained the full consent of all parties, practicing medicine without a license is illegal. And, the reason it is illegal is because most people (these practitioners aside) who hang their shingle as a “practitioner” are less qualified and less fully trained than licensed physicians.

    Unlike most procedures detailed here on bme, this procedure was available through normal legal channels. The client could have chosen to get legal medical help, unlike those who desire castrations, subincisions, scrotal splitting and so forth. (If we want those procedures to be legally availble, btw, maybe it is time to start lobbying for changes in the law.)

    In choosing to perform this procedure extra-legally, the practitioners risked something going wrong. Yes, something could go wrong in a hospital, but it is less likely. And, if a very poor outcome had occurred, the civil authorities would have no choice but to prosecute. It is quite possible this would then lead to crackdowns on other semi-legal procedures, or even outright banning of other currently legal body modifications. This is not just reactionary scaremongering on my part, it has happened before, in New York City, for example. A hepatitis scare shutdown tattooing in America’s largest city.

    The risk being taken was not just taken by the client, who frankly, may or may not have the technical knowledge to give informed consent and make the choice between an extra-legal practitioner and a licensed physician.

    The risk was not just taken by the practitioners, who I can only assume were trying to do a good thing, and were willing to risk their own freedom, livelihood and reputations to do so.

    No, the risks were also assumed by the entire bodmod community of the jurisdiction where this was performed. This assumption of risk was forced upon them by the practitioners.

    The issue in assessing risk is not how did this one case turn out. The issue is, “what if it had gone wrong?” These pictures, shown to the general public on the front pages of Bastien’s local paper, accompanied by news of some (admittedly unlikely) grisly outcome, would almost certainly lead to backlashes and crackdowns in this area. How many more moderate piercers and tattoo artists would then be thrown out of work because three individuals decided that these keloids would be better removed by an unlicensed practitioner.

    Wave your fists and storm the barricades all you want, body hackers or mod-revolutionaries or anarcho-artists or whatever you call yourselves this week. Next time you decide to throw a revolution, though, figure out a way to leave me out of it, please.

  178. Just a couple quick notes:

    I find it highly amusing that Deanna referred to her surgical scars as ‘oldschool’ as compared to body modification scars. Last I heard, modern surgery (i.e. her heart surgeries) was, well, modern–a relatively recent invention. On the other hand, scarification and other modifications go back thousands of years, making it far more ‘old school’.

    Also, I work in an industry that requires me to speak in my second language (french) about 50% of the time, in relatively technical terms, often about safety issues. On a daily basis I am faced with the difficulty of not being able to express myself as fluently as I would like. However, I know, and my clients understand, that this in no way makes me less capable or knowledgeable–there is simply a language barrier. Besides which, Deanna, your posts are certainly not devoid of grammatical errors, even using what I assume is your first language. Perhaps you should have a more fluent friend read them over before you submit them (I certainly don’t put myself above errors–I’m sure a careful eye could pick out more than a couple in this post alone–my point is not to rush to judgement).

    Also, my most recent experience in a hospital was a nightmare of cross-contamination. The doctor did not change his gloves throughout the entire procedure, despite touching another patient who had lost bowel control and sticking his hand INSIDE A GARBAGE CAN. Compare this to my last experience at a piercing studio, where the artist changed his gloves no less than 5 times, even when the things he touched had generally been sanitised prior, if not fully sterilised. But then again, the doctor’s first language wasn’t english…

    All this being said, I don’t know if I would have gone to a doctor of a mod artist in Bastien’s situation, but I know I would want the choice. Over-regulation of the industry won’t do anything but push practitioners further underground, as it has in the past, which we can probably all agree isn’t good for anyone.


  179. ok, its me again

    just for explain my first reaction was a little bit angry, cause i was amazed that i found those fotos on modblog without my permission, and that too many people take about shit and what they dont know only for having their glory time, amd their name on.
    now for explain how was the procedure, i was not a simple customer when we did it, i planned to spent few days with lukas for another thing amd explain him this kind of problem
    then after many days of brainstorming with samppa help, we decided to do this. everything was fucking clear, and quit quick, not a hardcore procedure as it seems for all the gossip, i think they can spend all lost their time on talking on amputee procedure or all other, or other extreme procedure as we can see on the extrem gallery, which those guys doing those kind of things in a non sterile way or sometimes without any knowledge, so dont disclaim what you dont know.
    now my scars look fucking great, i really happy about what i got now.
    again thanks my friends lukas and samppa (even he dont ask me for the post :)


  180. bastien, like i told u already, we don’t need ur permission for it. and it was Lukas who asked me to post them tho. And i think bu were there when we decided to post them. Anyway, can u contact me i have something for u;)

  181. Bastien, I’m very sorry about the mixup on the photos. I’m sure no one intended for that to be a problem for you, and I apologize for any hard feelings that came from that end of it.

    I also hope you understand that this conversation and photo set has helped people who are thinking about scarification, as well as people who have similar keloiding problems. All three core people involved deserve thanks for sharing their photos and story (whether you agree with what happened or not, sharing the story is very important so we can all learn from it).

  182. ok, if it can be a help for someone,
    whatever, for me, its this procedure who helped me

  183. Too many repetitions! To add some personal experience:

    -I was hospitalized for 6 weeks in the infection ward (because of a doctors misjudement! neraly killed me), and each week someone died on that post! The reason why infections are freequent in hospitals are the poorly performed aseptic procedures and attention to crosscontamination. There’s no other place where (potetially resistant) bacteria is spread so easily.
    In the modification scene (including body suspension) there is room for improvement on crosscontamination awereness and aseptic procedures. In any case infections are more likely to be a result of the aftercare, not the procedure.

    -The badly performed circumcision I had done in a hospital, by a surgeon (who insulted me for my genital piercings), will be corrected by a modification artist! I will not choose the artist at random, I’m 36 years old and I know what I’m doing. Who’s gonna try to stop me?! Fuck them and their laws! Yes, regulate the mainstreem tattoo and piercing, but to make the official, medical society understand -let alone the politicians- the whole of “our” world is still pretty far down the lane.

    -And as a point of trivia, in relation to suggested therapist consultation before getting procedures; I give speaces on the possitive aspects of self inflicted pain to healthcare personell in order to help them understand the importance of it. If it wasen’t taboo in the greater part of our society, more people could enjoy self inflicted/voluntary pain without getting diagnosed as sick!

    -And one last thing; I have never heard about a client with complications being rejected/neglected by the artist who performed the procedure. There may be a number of reasons why the client wishes to consult another artist.

  184. “for young kids, I would encourage it before they thought of getting a surgical procedure from someone who is not a doctor” … come on . what about people who get large boops or nose job by “licenced doctor”, sometimes even before they got 18 ?!

    anyway . i says what I add to say , and in english ;) . thanks shannon to tel that I could send my messages in french, but I think my english is getting much better than the first time we met … and I need to work a bit more on it .
    as for the photos, nothing wrong , just of course that maybe we should have say something to bastien before … sorry about that . but yes I told samppa that he could send it because the procedure was pretty interesting .
    Im just surprise to see so many people ready to put us in jail, avoid us procreation (to late !) or acting like little virgin girls going under their mother (america?!) dress to try to get some prottection ! poor baby . whaow , still a lot a job to do before see a bit of evolution coming from who is still so close from apes . Im sorry to hurting you babys, but look at what is going on aorund you about the body and is (re)volution, this is going to be just the begining !

  185. Wow, this thread has gone in quite a few different directions. But I must say I’m happy to have read posts from Lukas, Sammpa and Bastien because they were the ones who were actually there.

  186. That just seems a bit extreme for mod artists to do. It really falls into medical territory and I’m worried about it sending the wrong message. When are practitioners going to learn that it’s one thing to DO these mods, but another to publicize it. Oh well. I’m sure the fall out will make for interesting fodder.

  187. i would like to send pics of interesting procedures on bme in the future, but i don’t think that i bother if feedback is this kinda shit. instead of those, i’m gonna start sending pics of standard navel piercing only. is that what u ppl want?That body modification artists stop sending pics of their work? Kill bme and body modification industry? and watching pics only navel piercing? do u think that someone can learn anything then? And u life will be fucking boring…no real life and even virtual life is dead, only pics of navel piercing day after day, no virtual “doctors” anymore…sounds pretty shit, eh? And don’t Shannon understand me wrong, u do great work, but ppl are shit. in finland we say “helmiä sioille”

  188. and Shawn, u’ve done much more extreme work than this procedure…

    and to all of you: what makes this procedure so fucking extreme and hardcore? u haven’t seen fat tissue before? or 60 stitches in same? at least you have seen more blood tho?
    reality check please

  189. I have to say that I met Bastien in London and the results of the work is pretty neat. Of course, it will leave a scar, but smaller than the old ones, and again, there’s many factors that influence the way a scar heals, obviously, it went too deeply, so the complication was the thickness of each cut. On the other hand, as you should know, keloids could get bigger when they are done on the torso, and when you make a scar you have to always check if it will work properly to the body shape and skin disposition to avoid future complications. I don’t have as much experience in scarification work, as Lukas, Samppa, Ryan, and other artists but I think I have learnt plenty about how skin heals.

  190. Samppa: If you and other practitioners are going to do heavy, dangerous procedures (not just referring to this one specifically), you can’t expect everybody to just kiss your ass and tell you everything is great every single time.

    A lot of this stuff is controversial, and you’re going to need a much thicker skin and not be so defensive just because some people have criticisms.

  191. Sigh. I spent a good hour trying to decide whether to post this, because it follows a previous poster in veering off topic, but I just can’t in good conscience let some of the insults lobbed go unchalleneged.

    Here goes:

    “Im just surprise to see so many people ready… acting like little virgin girls going under their mother (america?!) dress to try to get some prottection ! poor baby . whaow , still a lot a job to do before see a bit of evolution coming from who is still so close from apes .” – lukas zpira, post 247

    Okay, first I will admit that the meaning of this post was not very clear to me, so I will respond as I understand it. If I am mistaken, please let me know. Not everyone here has maintained a tone of cordial debate, but this seems to be a bit over the top. Or maybe it was meant to be polite debate, and somehow it got muddled in translation from Finnish into English.

    Therefore, understanding that English is not your first language I would, in a friendly way, like to point out that these statements sound much harsher than I imagine you meant them to sound.

    1. Given the different racial and demographic composition of America compared to Finland, your statement could be misconstrued as racist. In English, the word “ape” is sometimes used in a racially charged way to refer to a person of sub-Saharan African descent. So, if I understand you to have said Americans (in a nation with many more blacks than Finland) are closer to apes, then surely you were unaware of the racist connotations of your statement.

    2. Not to mention sexist connotations in implying that girls are weak and women are cowardly.

    3. As for the “American” reference, well, yeah, I am an American, as are many people on this board (on both sides of this issue). I do not always agree with everything my fellow Americans do, I did not vote for the current President, and in fact I actively campaigned against him. The actions and history of a nation do not always reflect the general good-will of the citizens of that nation.

    So, I will take your use of the word “America” as just yet another example of the outpouring of insults, prophanity and vitriol present in most of your posts in this discussion. It seems when you find a way to insult one of us who disagrees with you, you do so, figuring that if you scream loudly enough, using enough insults, that it will somehow advance your argument. I understand that anti-Americanism is quite chic right now because of America’s foreign policy, but I would remind you that just as not every women is cowardly and not every girl is weak, not every American is boorish and imperialistic.

    Given that you have introduced attacks on nationality into this discussion and given the current climate of anti-Americanism, you seem to think “American” is some sort of curseword or insult. Since you seem to think that each individual citizen of a nation can be painted with the same broad brush as all their fellow citizens, maybe you can explain something I never understood. While the current American administration certainly has some problems handling foreign relations, I was never real clear about which side the oh so high-mindedly democratic and pure Finland took in WWII?


  192. I think it shouldn’t be talked about nationalities and what country did what, because it would never end, in the same way a person says that Finland had no clear side in the WWII one could say that the US even sent an ambassador to Vichy France. Personally I think this is about a procedure, not about foreign policies of countries.

  193. i wonder if anyone’s professional opinion of samppa has changed? not due to this procedure (which i agree boils down to just being a pretty hardcore large scale skin removal) but because of his inability to reply to people’s logical queries without using “fuck” every other word? no matter what your first language is, i guess “fuck” is the universal adjective/noun/verb ;)

  194. I hate to point this out after you have typed all that out, but i’m pretty sure Lukas is not from Finland. Someone correct me if i’m wrong.

    I don’t understand why everybody (on both sides of the debate) is getting so up in arms. People against it need to move on, it was bastiens choice, and what is right for you, may not be right for him. And people who are for it should also try to move on, people are going to have opposing opinions, and sometimes they might express them in a less than nice way but theres not point in getting yourself all upset about it.

  195. Nosimplehiway: Being half American and half European I think I can break down for you Lukas post.

    1. He is not using “ape” as you would in the States. That derrogortory term is not used in Europe for people of sub-Saharan African descent. That is exclusive to racist America. The way it is utilized in Europe is to indicate poorly evolutionized homo sapiens. As in Darwinism, primitive man or ape. Hence no racial slur.

    2. Nowhere did I read anything implying that girls are weak or women cowardly. He used virgin girl hiding behind her mother’s dress as a metaphor for a young naive scared child. Or in a more simple term A Big Fucking Wuss. There is no need to put words into his mouth or make up hidden meanings to what you think is there.

    3. His American reference, as I understood the thread was actually referring to previous comments from Deanne. Post 173 – THAT IS RACIST!

    BTW – Anti-Americanism has always existed. It is not a fashion trend of the current moment.

    Regarding WWII, how about the Native American Indians? Now and then? Blacks? Now and Then.

    I was not going to bother posting in this thread, mainly because as Samppa (according to mimibeth) I was saying FUCK everyother word as well. (as in: Fucking idiots. Fucking morons. etc.) But then decided to post after reading what you wrote. You may write very well and twist words and make it more difficult for them to express themselves. And that is just wrong.

  196. Since when french are hated?

    “mimibeth”, I suppose the best way to avoid those “fuck” is to respect the work of those artists but anyway, I didn’t read lots of fuck here.

    About this work, those photos show something really hardcore but it wasn’t so hardcore, and Samppa and Lukas did their work as they are used to do it, seriously.

    But I really think that the only important thing in this story is that Bastien is happy, so what’s your problem?
    Please, let good artists do their work, and open your minds, or else , BME is not a website made for you…

  197. why is it that in any heated debate, regardless of the main subject, SOMEONE (and sorry to generalise, but it IS an american 99% of the time) has to throw the anti-american/racism/discrimination hat into the ring?

    get over yourselves!

    re:overuse of the word ‘fuck’. ever watch an episode of the sopranos? the F word is about as verbally harmful as ‘kitten’ anymore.

    and i am pretty confident that lukas didn’t mean anything racist in the term ‘ape’, considering at this moment he is in sub saharan africa.

  198. I guess sadhaka has answered for me . thanks . racist ?! certainly not . that a really american attitude to describe some people under the name of ‘ape’ … americans are racist , im not .
    anti american ? maybe a bit . but man , you deserve it , no ?! you (americans) think that you can run the world and that the world is limited to america ! “follow or die” can be a good slogan …
    criticase people because they dont speak perfectly your language it s alerady a bit racist isnt it ? at least we try to comunicate with you .
    and how stupid is it when people talk about regulating body modification . regulation where ?! is the bodmod community limited to us ? and even , in this country it is not even legal to get a blow job in some states ! do americans really never give/receive blow jobs ?! how funny is this . how stupid are the comment of some people who want to put me in jail . are you on bme as a spy helping some people to create a guantanamo prison for bodmod practitioner ?!
    I haven’t sent any pictures in almost one year to bme because I was tired of the different issues some artist had because of their work. and I probably wont anymore. with samppa we decided to send these pictures because we thought that was an interesting thing to talk about . the procedure was difficult to do, but we handled it correctly and in what I think is a pretty nice job . we didnt want to be lynched like in old time america.
    I hope if one day Im going to jail because of what Im doing for this community I will get more support than this .
    but it is time to go really back underground if I want to keep myself safe …
    so now , I will use the word fuck , just to say “fuck you”, fuck you jordan and “friends”. just wait a couple of years . you will grow up a bit , and we will be ready to talk about all of that .

    (cyka, who’s first language is also not english, corrected my spelling and grammar)

  199. I wasn’t going to bother posting on here as it seems that every post turns into an arguement, but i felt that as it is my right to speak freely…i should do so.

    With regards to the topic of removal of those keloids…

    As some have pointed out already, it was a large scale skin removal which was done between 3 people (the client Bastien and practitioners Samppa and Lukas), mods much more dangerous than this are being done and posted daily in the extreme sections of the bme website so it hasn’t shocked me in any way shape or form. The only thing that shocks me is that the people in the extreme section who remove limbs and do various other mods that i personally would never consider…dont get half as much shit as that has been posted on this page.

    It seems like Bastien, after being in long talks with Samppa and Lukas, was more than 110% sure that he was going ahead with it fully knowning of the risks and healing problems that could then follow. He decided himself to get this proceedure done by samppa and Lukas that is HIS choice, not a forced one either.

    I can fully understand where some people come from with regards to the place and way that this proceedure was undertaken but let us remember that there were much worse operations undertaken in the fields of war and in many other countries…to the point that many of those would not be anywhere near as sterile as this one.

    The one thing that annoys me here is that this is supposed to be a community of like minded people who want to further bodymodification but it has turned into a torrent of abuse and small mindedness. The problem i see here is that someone will end up taking a full on offence to everything that has been posted and will end up passing this info into the wrong hands. This will later cause legislations to be considered at which point the vast majority of registered plastic surgeons and such, will say no to doing on the grounds of mental stability of thier clients and then where will things be????
    Back to the underground and with even greater risks!!
    I’ve seen more new people coming into the body mod industry over the past few years than there has been before, the problem now is that the people will go underground, information will not be passed on and more n more mistakes will come and harm the industry.

    I know it seems like a down view on things but thats the likely outcome of this if it does get into the wrong hands.

    There’s a lot of people here that are scared about things they do not understand and that shines through in some of the posts. I would not go to the dentist to get my transdermals as it’s not his field….samppa and lukas are professionals in the body modification community/industry/trade that are used to doing these sorts of proceedures, be they scarification, skin removal or otherwise….i dont feel that they would have done this if they felt it was beyond thier means, the client was happy and as far as it seems, is still very happy and thats all that matters. As long as bastien does what is required to look after these new scars then thats the main thing!!! Aftercare can and will make a big difference.

    As for the slagging off of everyone’s country and language/literary skills…. firstly i cant spell for shit and i live in the country that followed bush to war under false pretences only to find it turning into a money hungry bloodbath of which it never should have been.
    This debate could go on for ever but the fact of the matter is, we are all here and we are all on this site for one reason, and that is to build a solid community that can pass information back and forth to help the next person and so on so forth.

    Anyhows, i’ve said enough now i think so i’ll head off to work…ciao.

  200. Lukas, I’m American and I certainly don’t think that i can run the world or that the world is limited to America, but then again I wouldn’t call myself a typical American nor do I live in America right now.

    After reading this debate all the way until the end, it has really made me think about my thoughts of body modification. I don’t think that its anyone’s rights to say that Lukas and Samppa were wrong in what they did. Obviously, Bastien consented and benefited from the procedure.

    Since when did we start imposing the laws of society on the body modification community which has for so long existed outside of the realms of societal control? The truth is folks that doctors don’t belong on the pedestal that we put them on. They deserve as much criticism and investigation as practioners. I have a chronic disease that requires me to be in close contact with doctors and I have never had a good experience with any of them. They have overmedicated me without a second thought (which caused severe problems in the end) and shown me absolutely no sympathy or concern for my well-being.

    Body modification is an individual’s choice and as such an individual’s responsibility. It is the individual’s responsiblity to find a safe and talented artist or practicioner. That is why Shannon posted the pictures, so we could see the negative consequences of some procedures and be able to make a knowledgable decision.

    Most doctors have no experience in many of the procedures in the body modification community and they certainly do not understand the mentality behind it. There is simply no way that any society could control and regulate body modification practices, let alone make them legal. Is that how you want to exress you body creatively and artistically: through a regulated system? Body modification outside the hospital is going to happen. Doctors are too expensive, critical, insensitive, and naive about body modification.

  201. i watched this discussion for a while and it´s scaring to see how this discussion spreads – in the beginning it was about the keloid removal and then the discussion started if samppa and lukas are legally allowed to do perform such an procedure and now everyone is bitching on each other about rasism and other things.
    the whole discussion seems to be off topic now

    for me it was a decission of bastien – he decided who should do the initial scarification work and he decided who should solve the problem he got from it – i don´t care about the fact that it wasn´t legal to do it or not, as a professional piercer i perform everyday illegal things in my shop and every other piercer is doing so when they help customers with their piercing problems – it´s not their business to treat infections caused by piercing but every piercing does and nobody cares. so i don´t see any problem with the procedure samppa and lukas did, they didn´t force the guy to come to them and get it done, it was his free will.

    and sorry for the mistakes, english is also not my first language

  202. Lukas: The irony in you telling me to fuck off and grow up is almost too much to handle. I’m wasting my energy here. Best of luck.

  203. “Given that you have introduced attacks on nationality into this discussion and given the current climate of anti-Americanism, you seem to think “Americanâ€? is some sort of curseword or insult. Since you seem to think that each individual citizen of a nation can be painted with the same broad brush as all their fellow citizens, maybe you can explain something I never understood. While the current American administration certainly has some problems handling foreign relations, I was never real clear about which side the oh so high-mindedly democratic and pure Finland took in WWII?”

    what the fuck is all this!

  204. “publicly we will continue our work in editing, radio, music, press, etc… but privately, we will create something else, something to be shared freely but not consumed passively, something that ca be openly debated without ever being understood by the agents of alienation, something that has absolutely no marketable value but is precious nonetheless, something occult yet perfectly integrated in our daily lives.”

  205. “And all I can say is, if even one person has reconsidered going to a body modification artist for surgery, then my opinion is completely valid. ”

    As soon as I can find one to do my reconstruction for my lobe…I’de rather have someone who knows about what they are working on doing it than a plastic surgeon who could care less

  206. Alright, this is getting silly. Everyone is just getting to the point of attacking each other and where they are from. Not only is it getting away from the point of this article, but it is extrememly rude. STOP ASSUMING THINGS ABOUT PEOPLE FROM A SPECIFIC COUNTRY!! People who aren’t entirely fluent in ENglish are no less intelligent, and as an American, I AM NOT RACIST! I’m a fucking social worker for cryin’ out loud! Anywho, all I have to say is this. To Sammpa and Lukas- I respect what you guys have done in an attempt to help this man. Kudos to you. You turned mutilation into modification, which is what our community is about. And you did it to the best of your ability. Noone on here who is bitching about it was there, so they really should just get off of their high horses. People are allowed to make personal choices, and this was his. End of story. Now go do something productive instead of spin your wheels on here.

  207. Deanna,

    Name dropping will not serve the purpose you’re expecting it to after stating what you have.

    Like I said earlier. This topic of conversation is foreign to you.

    Your views on numerous matters have been noted.

    - Though it’s nice to openly post on modblog without feeling at all censored (Shannon is very good about recognizing each and every voice) it is true that the point has somewhere been lost and overlooked a long time ago.

    I sincerely hope to see more entries like this in the future. Hopefull most can get to more solid ground in understanding.

    Sometimes we all need to listen to be heard.

  208. Samppa – I hope you’ll keep sending in interesting sets like this. If you’d like I can keep them behind a members wall where by-and-large people who don’t understand what they’re seeing and how complex or not-complex the procedure is won’t give you grief over it (I’ve actually considered splitting ModBlog into three pieces; a members blog, a BME/Girls/Boys blog, and a mainstream mods blog). However, I think there’s a lot of value in publicly posting it, even if sometimes some people are asses about it. I strongly believe that this post has helped a lot of people.

  209. thats a pretty serious procedure there. somthig like that should be done in day surgery, possibly needing drainage tubes

  210. First off, sorry I got Lukas and Samppa’s nationalities mixed up. I apologize to both Lukas and Samppa individually and to their nations collectively, an dplease replace the word “Finland” with the word “France” in my previous post. :-)

    My point though, in responding to the references already made about nationality, was that no nation in the world is without something about which they can and should feel guilty. Every citizen, everywhere could be yelled at for their national origin. “You’re from Ukraine/Bolivia/New Zealand, you obviously don’t know what you’re talking out”.

    This sort of collective guilt has no place in a reasoned debate.

    I did not originally raise the attacks on any person’s nationality, but I am not going to sit by and watch my own nationality be disparaged without rebuttal.

    I pointed out that some people might take “ape” as racist, because I wanted them to know they were stumbling into some very inflammatory vernacular in English. Admittedly, it seems as if that might please them.

    I was quite happy at first, to see the practitioners themselves had joined the discussion, but what would you call many of Samppa and Lukas’s responses other than yelling. This thread was relatively polite for an online debate, though quite strident, until they introduced such gems of reasoned debate as:

    fucking jesus!!!! are u so fucking idiot that u really thinking that i cutting in english???!!!!!

    deanna: i don’t give a shit about ur respect

    I give free advice to all online doctors

    jordan: even if we were charging money, it wouldn’t be your fucking business

    On BME there are far more accepting, supportive people than a bunch of negative assholes

    bastien, like i told u already, we don’t need ur permission for it (pointing out to the client that they own the photos, which is true, since they got a release from him at the time of the procedure)

    but ppl are shit. in finland we say “helmiä sioilleâ€?

    who is going to make the regulation about body mods ? george buch governement ?! sorry Im laffing . are americans going to send some troops to arrest bodmods artist in other country ?! come on baby , think a bit by yourself and stop whatching cnn , ok ?

    That last one was all the way back in post 148, by Lukas, and I let it slide for quite a while. So, please folks, don’t think I was the one who raised attacks on others’ nationalities. But can we pleeease, on both sides, drop the nationalist rhetoric?

    Meanwhile, my basic stance remains the same. Thankfully, this procedure happened to turn out very well, because of Lukas and Samppa’s advanced skills. Performing procedures illegally, though, is bad for the bod mod community as a whole, because of the risk of public backlash when something goes wrong. Public opinion may not matter to you in a short term, “fight the power” sort of way, but it will when it leads to the inevtiable backlash. Performing illegal procedures, like castration, for example, may be necessary because the medical establishment refuses to do so, but I still have not seen a good reason why this particular procedure should not have been performed by a licensed doctor in a licensed clinic, other then “the client didn’t wanna”.

  211. What started as a debate over a procedure turned into a bunch of insults to the artists (one could not agree with them, but there’s no need to insult) and a lot of insults based on language, nationality and so on. Can’t there be a civilized debate?

  212. Nosimplehiway – “The client didn’t wanna” in my opinion should be enough. Bastien understood the decision he was making, and should have the right to make that decision. If he doesn’t have the right to have Lukas and Samppa do it, then by definition he does not own his body (but the government does).

  213. Lukas: Be carefully what u say to american ppl about their stupidity, otherwise they start calling “french fries” again “freedom fries”. Did u noticed that they started talking about “nd world war here? so be carefully that our procedure don’t cause 3rd world war now;)

    Shannon: I will, but in the future i hope that u keep all my heavy body modification pics behind the passwords. is that ok? it’s sad, but ppl lost totally that point why we sent these pics here. And coz they are too stupid to understand and they start talking 2nd world war and and how shit english we writing with lukas, then i think it’s pointless to give any information ppl who can’t dealing with it.

    and to all “american idiots”: you have to understand( i know that it’s really difficult) that there’s life outside of america too and luckily we don’t have as stupid laws than u have there.
    and we speak different language than you, so we speaking at least two language. how many language u speak? enghish and not even properly that? we can start writing here in finnish and in french, but then u stupido’s can’t understand anything. so keep ur mouth shut if u don’t have anything smart to say. our scalpels don’t speak english!!! and yeah, maybe our procedure is “illegal” in many european countries too, but who told u where we did it? in eastern europe? in africa? in india? only me, lukas and bastien know location and we never tell it to you…

  214. and go ahead and start talking shit about finland, i don’t care. i don’t live there, i hate finland and i don’t feel that i’m from Finland, i’m from nowhere…i’m not citizen of finland, i’m world citizen, sot don’t attac to finland then…

  215. I think Zpira began talking about American’s because of Deanna’s post where she says that she knows more than Finnish artists (or doctors? can’t remember now), as she sounded racist

  216. and why u all ppl just talk about how we did illegal procedure? could u pleas tell me one legal body modification procedure?not including piercing or tattoo….is implants legal everywhere? what about tongue splitting? or all genital modifications? what about scarification?
    u think that wasn’t acceptable, coz u can see so much fat tissue and that was too much for u. And all that “if” shit start pissing me off. we did knew what we did. we don’t start doing procedure if we don’t know what we doing. Maybe that makes us as good artist and ppl trust us. If so there’s no any “IF”
    if aunt’s have a cock, she’s uncle….

  217. Lukas, your anti-american form of racism is uncalled for and shit. As an american i take offence to your comments. We are not all Bush followers and racists, so FUCK YOU!
    BTW, 10 years?!? ONLY 10 years?? Thats nothing asshole, for doing that proceedure!! Spend 10 years in medical school, then you have a leg to stand on!!

    Samppa: i appreciate your comments and opinions, but fat tissue is a rarity for me and so are 60 stitches! it is WAY more serious then to be handled but Body Mod practitioners, IMO. Not everyone is accostomed to what you do. The reality is that of the common person, not you or me. To me alot of this stuff is extreme, but this proceedure was going way too far. Congratulations on the success, but i think you were lucky.

    I am glad that Bastien got the relief he needed.
    If it were me i would have gone to a hospital, but he has every right to his choice. i thnak him, Lukas and Samppa for sharing thier pictures and perspectives with us. Hopefully we can learn from it, regardless of our opinions.

    All the comments about how bad doctors and hospitals COULD be is beside the point. Lukas and Samppa had no place doing this proceedure, except that they had been asked to do so. There is no way you can expect me to believe that he could have given informed consent…unless Bastien is in the medical field himself. They seem to have done a good job, with good intentions from the heart. Unfortunately they failed to find him qualified medal help and did it themsleves. Doing so makes them look like grandstanding rockstars, hopefully this is not the case but it does look that way.

    As much as i believe we all have the right to do WHATEVER we want with ourselves and our bodies that we want (to the limit of affecting others without thier consent), i tend to agree with MOST of the statements of Jordan, Ausmoz, etc.

    I have NO experience in this realm and came into this debate with a neutral perspective and objective view-point. After hearing Lukas, Samppa and some of thier cronies rant, i feel more akin to Deannas perspective (strange enough).

    NOTE: i am concerned that at some points in this debate people have been mistaking what is being talked about. For myself i am ONLY concerned with the SURGICAL proceedure which Lukas and Samppa performed to remove the Kelioding. NOT other bodymodifications. Although i do hope this will make EVERYONE take a step back and rethink thier capabilities.

    There are already way to many folks that think they are artists or doctors by cutting people up. And dont forget that YOU are all breeding more and more hacks everytime you do a new piece and every time you put pictures out for public view! It woudl eb nice if these proceedures could be kept in a neat little bubble of experienced practitioners but that isnt reality. i hope this situation will make practitioners debate if the should, even when they CAN.

    Keep in mind, this isnt just the individuals freedoms its effecting. It does and will have an effect on ALL of us, just wait for the government groups to see this shit!!

  218. what a story, about 300 posts, amazing, we started from the law about this kind of procedure and we talk about everything now, interesting thing

    just for clear more, i explain with everyone about this post (samppa, lukas, howie)
    i understand now why they posted those pictures, so no problem, and everything is clear with howie too, dont disclaim him, it was a weird story but no when i see 300 posts, its awesome
    i think those procedures can help bodmod grow on, basically before implants and other procedures were “allowed”everybody thougth it was hardcore and much people disclaimed it, so lets it grow on again

  219. The whole point of going to a skilled professional (whether a licensed doctor or Samppa/Lukas) is that they often know more than the client. Unless Bastien has some training or knowledge which has not yet been mentioned or unless you want to argue that there is no special level of skill needed to understand this sort of thing beyond what the average guy on the street knows, Bastien did not understand the decision he was making. Therefore, he was unable to give truly informed consent. Had something gone wrong, I doubt “the client wanted it” would be much of a legal defense in any jurisdiction.

    In tattooing, clients will often ask me about glow in the dark tattoos. I could do many of these because the client wants them. Even after telling them the risks, some clients would still want them. Should I do them on the theory that the client always knows best what to do with his body? No, because if you are a professional, you realize that part of being a professional is showing better judgment than those who are not trained in your field.

    I have a problem with an unlicensed practitioner agreeing to this procedure, and thereby taking a risk that could easily backfire on the whole bod mod community where it was performed… wherever it was performed. The practitioners should have referred this to a licensed doctor, not because the practitioners were unable to perform it (clearly they were technically able to), but because of the legal and political risks involved. A professional should follow the local laws which regulate their field and work to improve those laws when they don’t work well. But they should not simply ignore those laws because the mod is kewl or the law is stupid. (BTW, if as Samppa implies this was performed somewhere where it was not illegal, well, okay, then, I am all for it. You did a good job and congratulations.)

    In the bodmod community, we accept legal risks when there is no other choice, such as when it’s a procedure licensed physicians refuse to perform, but that was not the case here.

    Upside of all this: we get to see Samppa show a model of how to conduct a polite, well-reasoned debate. (see post 281). Of course, us idiot American apes are too stupid to understand anything, so it probably won’t help. But it’s awfully nice of him to try.

  220. BTW, Bastien, I know someone said it before, but it deserves to be said again: great tattoos! I am jealous. :-)

  221. pete DaSilva – You say (about yourself), “I have no experience in this realm”, yet you’re making damning statements about the severity of this procedure, statements which my experience says are fundamentally incorrect.

  222. This is time consuming, kind of amusing, partly interesting, and pretty much bullshit.
    Shannon: would it be possible to make a “topic filter” in these treads to avoid the voices of the ignorant? Any one should still be able to read, but off topic posts stays out of the discussion.

  223. OK shannon, fair enough. but i have tried to make sure my comments about the proceedure are IN MY OPINION. IN MY OPINION this proceedure is extremely severe, out of the realm of Body Mod practitioners (no matter how good they are), and in serious need of medical attention.

    I am VERY glad Bastien recieved relief. i applaud Samppa and Lukas for thier success. Still i do not feel it was appropriate for them to perform the proceedure, IMO.

  224. Pete – The problem is to make that statement about this procedure, you have to be willing to make it about scarification in general, to say nothing of transscrotal piercing, implants, tongue splitting, and so on.

    Bleeding – We could probably patch in an IAM-only mode so people have to at least be willing to personally stand behind their comments rather than be anonymous.

  225. Wow. I really can’t believe I just read every comment in this thread. Quite an accomplishment, if I do say so myself!

    That being said, I think that this is a grown man who is perfectly capable of making his own decisions about his own body. Myself, I probably would’ve seen a doctor, but that’s just me. Obviously, it wasn’t our decision to make, it was Bastien’s.

    I also believe that every time someone on a LiveJournal community freaks out because they have a bump on their piercing and think it’s a keloid, I’m going to refer them to this post.

    Anyway, thanks for posting these Shannon (and thanks to Lukas, Saampa, and Bastien for telling this story). I’ve reached my educational and grossed out limit for the day :)

  226. sorry Shannon, but i ABSOLUTELY disagree that this proceedure MUST be lumped in with scarification in general, implants, etc.

    i see this proceedure on its own.

    Are you trying to say that this removal was an attempt at art, ritual, etc. i think this proceedure was an attempt at playing doctor.

  227. Looks my scars after my surgery before the swelling went down. Poor guy, I feel his pain there. That “scarification artist” needs to be shot, that’s far too deep, especially for cutting right there. I hope the healing goes well.

  228. Shannon:

    What’s so wrong with anonymous posting? Doesn’t mean we don’t stand behind our beliefs.

    I must be quite the coward.


    It really doesn’t matter if you don’t stand behind the proceedure or not. You were uninvolved.

    To stand behind the notion of “it effects our community if they get arrested” Well, it effects the community regardless. Both possibly positive. The “community” may not always be underground but currently it is. It won’t change due to someone’s incarceration. Perhaps we’ll just get back to concealing it a little more.

    I really don’t see the difference in 6 sutures or 60.

  229. Pete DaSilva – I’m saying that this procedure is less intensive than other procedures that we generally accept as being non-medical domain. I don’t see that the motivation is relevant. All that’s relevant is that he made an informed decision about what he wanted to do with his body. We either support his right to do so or we don’t. Personally I support people in making ANY decision they want about their own bodies.

  230. Pete:

    When Shannon had his arm sutured, it wasn’t for any artistic reason either. Should he have gone to the hospital to get sewn up. What for?

    To miss out on all the fun of getting to play doctor?

  231. Lukas and Samppa, be careful on how you generalize about Americans. At the beginning of this thread I sympathized with you. I think you made the right decision and did a good thing for Bastien. In addition, I have a great amount of respect for the work you have done in the past; however, your comments about Americans are incredibly insulting and I am beginning to question my respect for you.

    I am an American and no, I DO NOT believe that America is the only part of the world, nor do I think that I am better than anyone else because I am American. I realize that there is life outside of the United States.

    P.S. Samppa, I speak three languages and I am currently learning a fourth.

  232. “I’ve actually considered splitting ModBlog into three pieces; a members blog, a BME/Girls/Boys blog, and a mainstream mods blog”.

    I think its really sad if it has to come to this. I personally don’t have an IAM account because currently I can’t afford to. My point is that if part of ModBlog become filtered so I can only see it with a password, I lose out on seeing a large part of the community that I have an interest in.

    Sorry its sounds like such a whiney post!

  233. Bastien is a practitioner himself? Hmm, did not know that. Okeydoke, so he did have the technical knowledge to give informed consent. Cool!

    I still say this procedure is different from others (castration, amputation, scrotal splitting, etc) in that you cannot get licensed doctors to perform them. Folks who desperately want these mods have no choice but to go underground.

    Had Bastien presented himself at any hospital anywhere, I highly doubt if he would have been refused treament. So I ask again a question no one has yet answered. Why did he not use the legitimate medical system? The simple answer, of course, is “he didn’t want to”. I am wondering, though, why… what was the decision making process? Is he in a community where being found insane is a likely outcome? Could he not afford licensed treament? Does he simply have a phobia of doctors and hospitals? Was he in a warzone or developing nation where there is no functioning medical system?

  234. About the anti-americanism: you guys don’t get the point. The problem is that everybody is talking about the “illegal” procedure and that bodymod should be regulated/controlled/whatever. But they don’t even think about the fact that maybe in other countrys this might be legal, and that a regulation would have no effect because it would only be national. And the original procedure was done in Switzerland and the fixing somewhere else.

    It’s not about all americans consciously believing that the world is limited to their borders, which is certainly not the case. But to us people from other countrys, stuff like the above mentioned often give us the impression that a lot of americans assume that the whole world works like their country. Of course it’s also a common prejudice but it’s often approved.

    I hope I didn’t offend anybody, I just wanted to clarify that.

  235. I didn’t really want to get involved in this whole debate but have decided to throw my two cents in. I’ve just had blood drawn twice in the last two days and am currently looking at a 2″ square bruise on my right arm, the sample having been taken by a nurse who didn’t even use a steri-swab on the area.

    The left arm (swabbed before sample was taken and taken at a different clinic) has no sign of bruising at all.

    Just to show that a professional qualification does not always mean that the practicioner is infallible. I know several of my friends have managed to play pierce me with no bruising at all (and yes I realise there is a difference in needle size and the depth of the piercing, it’s not a perfect example). I also no there is no way they would attempt it without attempting to clean the area first…

    Best of luck to you Bastien, I hope it heals well.

  236. Just to make this thread a little longer, I’d just like to add my quick opinion. I use the internet primarily as a means of education, and having never seen such extensive keloids and the ensuing corrective measures before I am now a more knowledgeable individual. That is what BME is for, and that was (I assume) the driving force behind posting these pictures in the public arena – education.

    Thankyou to all concerned for sharing this information, and remember that there are much, much worse things going on in the world that will never be subject to such public scrutiny. Informed consent is present here, but to millions of people in the world choice, or freedom, are alien concepts.

    That is something which infuriates me.

  237. well finally got to the last comment…..after having read lots of bullshit…lots of correct ideas and sooo and sooo and sooo ooonn….i just have to say that howie is not to be blamed cos of the procedure. looking at the fresh scar i must say it’s a bit too deep for my point of view. this, added to the fact that his pigmentation denotes he has some issue with scarring, justifies what had happened with the big keloids. of course aftercare also influences a bit….and another right thing….man i’ve seen scars grow so fucking much at a year…..when they are supposed to be already settled down. some ofmine had behaved like that, and now are settled down. i agree on the ring point…on the bare forearms for the procedure….but there’s nothing more i can really critique without knowing all the essentials of the situation. this just shows us how something not pretended to be like that, can turn in a hell….just be careful with what u do….be clear when u drop ideas to ya practicioner…and, if he’s well trained or self prepraed, he’ll know how to act in order to achieve the best results…really big CONGRATS fro sampa and lukas that helped this guy as much as they could….and i think just as they do…cmon, how much would u charge someone that really needs helps…i’ve done tons of free procedures to save peoples faces or bodies without having a cent paid, and the satisfaction of see they face smile is all i needed to feel fullfilled….keep on doing nice procedures and enlightening our eyes with ya art…

  238. “I’m saying that this procedure is less intensive than other procedures that we generally accept as being non-medical domain. I don’t see that the motivation is relevant.”

    I personally agree with this statement. However, in the UK at least, the law doesn’t. If you are doing a procedure to correct a problem, that makes it practising medicine without a licence (we don’t have the same rules about using medical tools as in the states)….leaving us in the stupid position that it’s legal for a mod artist to remove someone’s tongue web if it’s normal, but if its too short and is stopping them sticking their tongue out properly, or it is catching on their teeth and causing them pain, legally only a doctor would be allowed to deal with it.

  239. “man i’ve seen scars grow so fucking much at a year…..when they are supposed to be already settled down”

    Wild Skin – what gave you this impression? Scar tissue normally takes at least 2-3 years to fully mature, and keloid scars often carry on growing and growing.

  240. venusdiablo – I have too many bad experiences with nurses who are allowed near needles. I once left after getting blood drawn with 7 puncture marks and sizable bruising over both arms and hands. She also had to use 3 different sized needles before she was happy.

    She also wore one pair of gloves throughout, despite moving around and touching things in her room which obviously weren’t sterile… which may not have harmed me at all but still irked me a little!

    I now won’t let anyone other than a phlebotomist near me with a needle for medical purposes.

    Sometimes you really wish they’d learn from body mod practitioners.

  241. everytime i come back to this entry i get pissed off

    not cause of all the comments

    cause i dont keliod for shit hahaha

    seriously i gave my face HELL for 2 weeks and they are so faint i need to cut them again

    and i will cut them, even though apprently its a crime

  242. Regarding post #84 (ancient history, I know)

    I did not mean to imply that I thought either of the artists in question SHOULD be jailed or fined. I extend my apologies to Mssrs. Zpira and vonCyborg if that was inferred.

    I only wanted to point out the potential legal ramifications of their actions to anyone who might be considering performing similar procedures. I also wanted to point out that in legal procedings in the US, which is all I am familiar with, the fact that someone is acting out the desires of another is not a legal defense.

  243. Now we’re back to loving each other….

    …Bastien – who did your arms?! Stunning work :D


    PS: I agree with Shannon’s plan to perhaps make the more extreme Modblog entries password-protected…Even if it means that I’ll have to get off my fat ass and finally join IAM after all this time ;)

  244. vampy: i know that scar tissue keeps maturing almost to 2 years…and some more time….i just missed the point that it was only a month old… :P

  245. I think it all just comes down to this: all clients have a right to choose whoever they want to perform a procedure, whatever laws there may be. The must be aware of the risks that they are taking by doing so. A big part of this is the practitioners understanding what they are and are not capable of doing, and what legal ramifications exist, and informing the client of these things.

  246. Who are you people to tell this man what he should and should not do with his body!!??

    People should have the freedom to whatever they want. WHATEVER THEY WANT! To their OWN BODIES!! (And this is the whole point of BME)

    I own this sack of guts and skin and goddamn it I will scar it, pierce it, hang it from hooks and mark it for life because it IS the ONLY thing I own 100% and that no one can take away from me!
    If I screw it up, let me drop dead where I stand and rest in piece with my OWN adult decisions I have made for it.

  247. There cannot be complete individual ownership of ones self without complete responsibility for ones self – otherwise there will be a total impass for any societal system.

    The individual must take complete responsiibility for the consequences of the choices made – this is similar to seat belt laws which are justified by the cost incurred by the government’s costs being inflated by peoples injuries from not wearing the belts via responders, socialized health care, etc. If something had gone wrong and this perosn had availed themselves of the services provided by prevailing local government / society he would have burdening them via his choice in way that MAY have been forseeably avoidable by going to a licensed doctor.

    I take the position that we should have this choice (to ask anyone we choose) and total control over our bodies but it is unreasonable and oversimplifying the case to say we get this absolutely – any right has a corrsponding responsibility and unless you are ready to take on that responsibility, you get no claim to the right.

  248. Sadly in this day and age of sue happy fuckers…Im surprised we are still allowed to voice our opinions…Its rediculous…So much for evolution.

  249. Fascinating discussion I’ve jumped in at the end of… but when it comes down to it, how many people here have had a someone fuck up a body mod? What happens next? You learn from the fuck up, and start being choosier about who does your work next time. Mistakes are an intregral part of our learning experience as human beings. My earlier mistakes are what led me to my piercer and my tattoo artist.

    The laws about practicing medicine are put in place so someone with no ethics can lie to the average person and give them substandard care. But when the subject comes up, and the individual in question is clear about the fact they do NOT have a medical degree, and do not have a license to practice medicine, and you still choose to receive care, it’s your decision. This is yet another example of the fear that laws in place for a good reason can be abused and twisted to take away more of our freedom. The United States government rules by fear. We overreact to situations due to fear. And overreacting to these situations is what gives the government more power to abuse those fears and twist the laws meant to protect us.

    If this is actually turned into a criminal issue, I will most assuredly contact my congressman, and lodge any number of protests I feel are necessary. Until then, it’s a non-issue. And on a side note, I had no idea scarring occurred that way. I’ve been busy getting tattoos that *cover* scars. Cool stuff. I hope the guy heals well.

  250. And in hindsight, you’re right.

    I guess one can’t really own anything 100% – body included.

    I think that people should be allowed to do what they want until it affects other people negatively. (ie seatbelts, taxpayers, etc)

  251. Perhaps surprisingly to most folks following this thread, I voted “Yes, I should have that right” on Shannon’s poll regarding this topic.

    I personally believe that the law should take a more laissez-faire attitude toward body modification, and I believe that the medical establishment should agree to perform a wider range of elective procedures (eg castration, scrotal splitting, urethral relocation).

    Unfortunately, in most places, we are not there yet.

    If we want to change the way society regulates what we can and cannot do with our bodies, the most effective way is to take the normal routes for political change. Lobby your legislators, file lawsuits, hold public protests, get involved in elections, write letters to the editors, launch boycotts, and maybe even run for office yourself. These are the time tested ways we have, in democratic societies, to achieve social and legal change.

    Simply ignoring the law and hoping it will change on its own is rarely, if ever, effective.

    (I still, btw, maintain that mods unavailable legally might be okay to perform. Call it civil disobedience if you want. I never claimed to be entirely consistent. lol)

  252. The Lizardman:

    So, no sky diving, deep sea diving, horse back riding among others since these are high risk activities for injuries.

    I guess I’m safe since I pay for private medical insurance in a country with socialized health care.

    hmmmm… I guess people that try to commit suicide should be added to that list as well….

    If push came to shove I would more than happily pay an extra premium to cover such things.

  253. .. I wonder what the stats would be of amount of money spent by the state in each of these activities including body modification related health issues…

  254. Sadhaka

    paying the premiums-thats you and, in fact, if you read carefulyl you will see I agree with you. But just paying the money is one thing, you still take up the space and the doctor time, etc…

    The rub, as it were, that I was pointing out was that if there is to be a system in place that we all pay for (taxes) for the purpose of providing services then it is reasonable for there to be laws restricting behaviour which unfairly taxes the resources of that system.

    I don’t want risky behaviour limited in any way but those who are with me on this must concede that the individual must bear the responsibility of their actions.

    You are paying for private care but look at this way, if the person chooses to circumvent laws put in place to minimize risks (licensed doctors) and then requires care as a result how would you react to them being denied that care by the state? I’d say that it would be just fine to deny the person or charge them entirely for all costs.

    Absolutely you should possess and control your own body and take what risks you wish with it but if you do not then stand up and accept the responsibility I am fine with you being restricted

    Another example – I don’t believe there should be any medical research or practice to save smokers – they chose to poison themselves, let them live (actually die) with that choice. But thats not how we seem to work, instead millions of dollars and time & energy are spent on them instead of others who made no such similar life shortening choice.

    For all the cries of ‘I want to do what I want’, rarely does anyone stand up and finsih that thought with ‘and I want to be held accountable for doing what I want’ The impact of our behaviour in society currently goes far beyond ourselves – many people lose their lives due to not enough ambulances being available or their being delayed. Are you going to take responsibility for the death that occurs when your risky behaviour results in a call that otherwise may saved someone in an accident, perhaps even the proverbial innocent child ;)

  255. As usual, The Lizardman has an excellent point. Wanting the right to own your body is all well and good, but what about the responsibility that goes along with it?

    So long as our society teems with people who deny any responsibility for anything that happens in their lives, who would rather sue anyone and everyone connected with a decision than accept that they screwed up, the current laws will stand.

    And frankly, until a majority of people are evolved enough to stand up for their own actions, the government should stay the course. Otherwise, people will just start suing the government for failing to protect them from their own stupidity.

  256. Judging by anonymous speculation as to why BME hired me and inexplicable references to my genitalia as a child, it seems that some people here have definitely misunderstood the points I’ve been trying to raise here. Let me explain myself.

    I love body modification. Aesthetically and culturally, I think it is fascinating and wonderful in all its forms. I absolutely think everybody should have the right to whatever sort of appearance he or she desires.

    But body modification is not just a cultural movement — it is an industry. You buy scalpels, you charge for tattoo work, you purchase silicone and teflon, you open up shops and studios, you go on tours around the world doing work; this is not a knock — it’s just a fact.

    And it happens to be an industry where some dangerous things occur.

    Piercing and tattooing have fought battles for legitimacy, and largely, they’re winning — tattooing especially. Sure, maybe you can’t get a ton of jobs with a bunch of visible work, but proper protocol and guidelines have been established in many places, and very few people are going to get locked up for piercing or tattooing if they’ve gone through the proper channels.

    More extreme procedures — implants, scarification, tongue splits, etc. — have not attained this legitimacy. Moreover, as far as I can tell, little effort has been made to do so. This is not the fault of an oppressive government — it is the fault of an industry that thinks it is somehow special and has a divine right to exist.

    I personally think that heavier mods have a place in our society. I absolutely do. But if the industry of heavy mods is going to continue to grow, then certain regulations need to be applied — these procedures cannot be lumped in with piercing or tattooing.

    I stand my by earlier point: If you need a license to work in a nail salon, then you sure as shit should need one to use a scalpel on a person.

    It is completely unrealistic to expect to be conferred a sense of legitimacy in a society when no effort has been made to obtain it. If people want to make money legally off these procedures, then they can’t flaunt the laws just because they won’t be able to get their way overnight. These things take time.

    So, no, I don’t personally think that Lukas, Samppa, Howie, or whoever should go to jail just because they do what they do — but they’re working in a completely unregulated industry that has ZERO check and balance if they seriously hurt somebody.

    I don’t think they should be locked up, but I also think they’re very naive if they don’t accept it as a very real possibility. Simply saying “nothing has gone wrong yet” — and really, how do we know that nothing has gone seriously wrong? — is just not good enough.

  257. Lizardman:
    “if there is to be a system in place that we all pay for (taxes) for the purpose of providing services then it is reasonable for there to be laws restricting behaviour which unfairly taxes the resources of that system.”

    you’re absolutely right, and this sounds absolutely fair to me too

    unfotunately there are different opinions on what’s ‘unfair’

    just to get back to the example of the smokers:
    it’s an individual choice, as much as choosing to get a body mod (often a LESS informed one though, and LESS motivated, with LESS emotional importance etc etc)

    however :
    smokers: billions of dollars to be made by selling smoke, doing research, selling medicines etc etc AND smoking is normal and socially acceptable

    body mofication: ewwww that’s gross!!! why would you do that to yourself?!?
    so let’s just selectively discriminate against this choice as society doesn’t really like it, and let’s act all prissy, even if in terms of social costs it’s nothing compared to a smoker’s.

    this really pisses me off

    I eat too much; it’s my choice, still no one denies me medical care because I’m overweight, nor do I get forced by law to eat tofu or exercise….
    I risk becoming diabetic and this would cost a lot in terms of social care. still, no one arrests me or those that sell me chocolate

    Samppa and Lukas and Bastien get all the crap – but surely some antibiotics and stitches for Bastien would be much cheaper than free gastric bypass surgery for me?

    their risky behaviour could result in a call that otherwise may have saved someone in an accident, perhaps even the proverbial innocent child; well I probably kill a few innocent children every day as I waste resources and grains – I eat meat. still, I get away with it…
    and so on and so forth.

    thanks all for the interesting debate :o)

    ( well, not really ALL, especially the ones that use ‘fuck, fucking’ and the like instead of commas and full stops. It does not really add to the depth of the discussion…)

    *disclaimer: my opinion is probably worthless as I’ m Italian so I surely made some spelling/grammar mistakes*

  258. Lizardman:

    I still find it discriminatory attitude towards body modifications. I agree to some laws, such as not providing elective treatments. These are not medical neccesities. As it stands, individuals do not bear the responsibility of their actions. Obesity, smoking – as you pointed out, alcohol related demencia or cirrosis, and many others are in fact covered by the taxpayers. Why should bod mods be any different? Why discriminate against them? And if in fact individuals should bear the responsibility of their actions to the extreme of denying them medical access then there needs to be a serious shake down of the system as it stands and stop treatments for many things currently accepted. (A posible solution to the world’s over population problem maybe?) We should ALL be treated equally. It’s MY tax money too!

    Regarding the ambulance delays etc. I find this to be directly related to what I mention above. All public services should be shared equally, regardless.

    And FMR has replied to everything else just as I see it.

  259. If the question comes down to ‘is it fair to pay taxes’ to support health care for someone engaging in risky behaviour, well, sure it is. I pay taxes, and part of my taxes goes to education. I don’t have children, nor will I ever, however I accept the fact that my taxes go to support education. I have private health insurance, but again, I have to accept the fact that part of my taxes paid goes to support medicaid/medicare.

    If you are a part of a society, you must accept that some things you pay for are things you will never take advantage of. My taxes also go to the roads that I drive on daily. My taxes go to pay the salaries of politicians that I actively demonstrate against during election times. And my taxes go to pay the health costs of idiot 16 year olds who have a ‘friend’ or studio that doesn’t care about clients except as cash cows when they get infections and start having other problems due to bad mod work, bad decision making, or both.

    So how do you cut down on the costs involved with either extreme mod work that simply might have complications due to individual body types, or bad mod work done by artists who don’t care? Regulate the industry. North Carolina only requires a single health inspection a year for tattoo studios. Restaurants get inspected more often and they do NOT cause open wounds in their customers. However ‘risky’ the behaviour, if it can be ensured to be done as safely as possible, the medical costs can be cut down substantially. I would be curious to see the statistics of how much money was saved in the health care industry after Roe vs Wade.

    Bottom line, you regulate the industry properly, and less costs become involved. Thus, the primary argument against body mods as society money drainers vs personal freedom is negated. And for those costs that do become an issue, either find a new country or start doing work to change the laws we have now for personal responsibility. If you live in a society, you accept the rules set forth for you, the number one in all societies is taxation, and the governments descretion in how to spend it.

  260. Well, people like to ramble on here don’t they? I’d just like to say that I’m happy that Samppa, Lukas and Bastien all commented. It was good to get the opinions of the people directly involved… Judging from the one month pics, they all did a really great job, it’s things like these that get me coming back to BME.

    It’s a shame that so many people supportive of procedures like this have to waste their own time arguing with ignorant people who don’t understand (or don’t want to) the world of body modification. That said, good on you all for trying to make this world a more accepting place. I know that I personally have had many an argument over such matters.

    Shannon, I have to agree with the things that you say. You always seem to word everything just right. I hope you and everyone on the BME team can keep up the good work with the site.

  261. “If you are a part of a society, you must accept that some things you pay for are things you will never take advantage of.”

    yes! sure, it’s fair enough for me. but as I happily pay taxes to send my neighbour’s kids to school (and I HATE kids) I would appreciate it if my neigbour would kindly let me mind my own business with regard to other choices he might not like.

    I did not choose to be a part of society, but as it is, I try to behave.

    However, I do not like it when restrictions and norms are forced on me on the sole basis of the objectable moral of my rulers.

    for me that’s what the problem boils down to.

    no wonder I cannot legitimately get a scarification done if for example my government does not even allow me to die as I wish (see recent debate on euthanasia in Italy and other countries).

    that said, seen as the governments still haven’t and will not be likely to provide enlightened regulations for the industry, I too believe that practitioners should be extremely careful and responsible for the sake of their customers and the industry itself

  262. Ok, i honestly think Lukas and Saampa need their own television talk show. Can you imagine it? Id have to TiVo that shit.

    Lukas: America Is Zee BAD GUY!
    Saampa: They Ees soo stupid!
    Lukas: Die Capitalist PEEG!

  263. Wow…I’m jumping in pretty late…I read the modblog when posted, and had no words that I thought worth sharing…Until I read the recent article, and the HUGE debate that seems to be taking place.

    I’m always pleased to read well-formed, intelligent responses (thank you Erik, Shannon, Jordan, etc.)

    My two cents: I personally do believe that we should have a right to do with our body as we please, so long as we take the time to RESEARCH and CONSIDER all possible outcomes. And this doesn’t mean just the desired outcome.
    I personally have three scarifications, and plans for further “extreme” mods. Will I go to a Medical practitioner for these? No. Because I will be laughed out of the office, or possibly sent for psychiatric evaluation.

    What Bastien CHOSE to do to his body, was just that: HIS CHOICE. Should the rest of humanity (or even just the mod community/industry) be forced to suffer for it? Hell no. But we should be made aware of it, and that (I believe) was Shannon’s object in posting this entry.

  264. Some points for clarity in terms of reading my posts here:

    I mainly started commenting here in response to Shannon’s article – not the entry itself. I am personally fine with the work that was done as documented in the entry and the choice to have it done by non-licensed practitioners. My only interest here is the general discussion of freedom & responsibility as has been broached regarding modification.

    It seems to be happening here, as it does all to often that the battle cry for freedom from societal norms has been raised without a serious consideration of responsibility. To wit, I should be free to do what I want is not the same as I should be free to do what I want at the (potential) expense of others.

    This freedom (of either sort) is often claimed or derived from a total ownership of ones body (when discussing modification) but it is, to the best of my knowledge, impossible to retain an absolute ownership or control over ones self AND be a responsible contributing member of society. We make sacrifices of liberty by not being the solitary brutish loners sometimes postulated before the dawn of “civilization” – the challenge for us all is to make sure those sacrifices are minimal rather than nonexistent. It is impossible for us to band together if no one concedes anything.

    Thus, while I find the close of Shannon’s piece rousing and wonderful as rhetoric, it is also, to my mind, completely untenable with the idea of even the most utopian society in practice. Being we all live (regardless of global locale) far from any measure of utopia it is all the more important that when freedoms are claimed the corresponding responsibility is applied. For most of what hasd been said in response to the examples I have offered, I am inclined to agree – as pointing out other failings of responsibility only supports my position, I would similarly critique many areas besides modification where people are not properly held accountable.

    I think thats about it for me and this forum, doesn’t seem much more to be said (of course I like beating dead horses as much as anyone so we shall see)

  265. i agree mostly with Jordan‘s perspective. every statement he’s made (i’ve read everybodies) is based on concern for the industry’s future (not himself) so it surprises me to see so many conflictions going on around that. isn’t body modification a common relationship we’ve all created here? how can we disagree with protecting it…

  266. Wow, I’m in late! Um, I agree mainly with post #265.

    I’m very surprised no one has brought up the following points, which I find extremely important.

    Going to a medical doctor — even aside from questions of whether the doctor would know what to do with a procedure like this, but let’s assume an otherwise competent doctor — might lead to several very unpleasant situations.

    -Verbal abuse. It’s unfortunately very common for doctors to insult and belittle modified people. And in a situation where trust is necessary, a situation where another person is cutting into your body — I wouldn’t want that trauma, I wouldn’t even want the remote risk of that trauma.

    -Forced prosecution of the original artist. I don’t know whether this could happen in France, but it could easily happen in America.

    America, after all, is where a married woman of 18, going in to the doctor for prenatal care, found her husband suddenly placed in jail because it became apparent that he had impregnated her several months earlier — despite the fact that MARRIAGE in California was legal under 18 with parental consent, apparently, a married 17-year-old is not allowed to have sex with their partner.

    The doctor violated confidentiality to do this, but the government didn’t care.

  267. Tuntuu käsittämättömältä kuinka USAlaiset viitsivät käsitellä näinkin yksinkertaista asiaa ainostaan omasta suppeasta perspektiivistään. Kannattaisi miettiä mitä tekstiä suustaan päästelee. Kaikki tämä vain vahvistaa uskoani jenkkiläiseen egoismiin.

    And finally i speak and write five languages fluently and i´m a FINN and very proud of that.

  268. I don’t normally comment on items but after reading every single comment I feel the need to add my two cents

    As someone medically trained, all this talk about taking resposibility has rung bells. Here in the UK they are considering making people stop smoking and pledge to stay off cigarettes before they can have any treatment for the problems caused by smoking, the same goes for alcohol and people that are obese. Making people take responsibility for the problems they have brought upon themselves and for taking money out of the national health service (for those that don’t know health care over here is free at the point of delivery as its taken out of taxes)

    As far as informed consent I have witnessed many a time doctors explaining a procedure to patients without including all that the procedure entails as well as all the major risks. From what I”ve read samppa and Lukas didn’t just rush in to this procedure they along with the client thought long and hard about it,much closer contact than any doctor has with their patient taking about a procedure.

    As far a sterlity goes I’ve seen doctors and scrubs nurses eating their dinners less that 20yards away from a patient that has been opened up and dropping crumbs on the the operating theatre floor. I have witnessed samppa at work and I know how clean he likes things to be. The choice of stitching and after care is normal dependant on the person doing the procedure, so people commenting on the stitching may be right but everyone chooses different things.

    I think this procedure looks alot worse that it actually is due to the placing on the scars and the length of the incision that needed to be made. I’ve witnessed a quite similar things happening in treatment rooms within hospitals were two patients are only separated by a curtain, people are constantly walking through and with a surgeon wearing non-sterile gloves, and by a surgeon considered to be one of the best in the country in his field. Personally I would much rather go to a body modifiyer I trusted than some doctor that doesn’t know me from adam.

    However I would like to see some kind of legislation in to protect not only the client undergoing body modification but also the artist themselves, to make it safer for all concerned.

  269. to post 303 : yes i am a practionner apprentice, start to do some things in france, and a piercer since a while. I had the choice to go to hospital, for many times i question myself, where to go to remove this. i know some esthetic surgeons with who i started to talk about. they talked about remove this and maybe need a graft. after, as i knew that i’ll go to meet lukas, i explained him all this problem, and we thought that, for the “experience” and cause we knew that it will be esay to do this, and cause samppa did it one time before, all together we planned to do this “happy end” procedure.

  270. and for adding
    i agree too with a protect blog about hardcore things like this, with a password, cause i think those kind of post can help, of course, i can’t deny, but i think there can help especially professionals, or other informed persons, no to let children and other gossip to see it, cause they ll for sure talk about that they’re shocked and they don’t understand.
    please make it shannon, and i’ll agree again with bme goals :)

  271. why is everyone so fixated on the licensing? it’s a piece of paper, just because someone has it does not make them good at what they do. I do think body modificationa artists should get such pieces of paper as suggested if simply for the fact that the more knowledge you have the better off for everyone. I’m sure its only my opinion but more than a few doctors chose that profession for the monetary gain not for the love of the job…the reason most body artists chose their profession. Just because someone is a licensed professional does not make them a GOOD professional, school is easy enough to cheat and I’m sure many doctors did just that, with the modification industry it’s harder to cheat. the resources available to bullshit your way through procedures isn’t as prevailent. A good artist has to have a certain understanding of how and why the procedure works and what will change how it works for each person, TYPICALLY the doctor just knows it will (or assumes) and does it without considering that each body is different and will respond differently, not really thinking about what outside forces could affect the results (much like I believe that the movement of the area added significantly to the keloid buildup and that the medical corset will greatly help). Maybe I just have a bad experience of doctors. I’m glad he got the problem taken care of and the help was available to him, as it should have been. Also (completely random and not related to main topic) about the nail salon licensing bit from jordan i believe it was-I personally have not had this experience, in in fact the only people who have this license (i believe it falls into the barber shop/cosmetology area) are the people who OWN the shop, they dont seem to do much work and typically have people who are just taught what to do and handed a file.

    To shannon that quote by lukas #151 would really look nice on a t-shirt *hint*

  272. Hello guys
    Please don’t use any password protection. There is absolutely no logical reason why underage people (you won’t find any “child” here) should not learn more about body modifications. And sureley there are lots of stupid and closed-minded posts on here but primarly there are different opinions and its worth thinking about the thinks others post.
    It really comes down to what you think how far people should be allowed to go. Everybody will have to answer this question for himself.

    btw: Shannon i didn’t know your not american :) Where are you from? i’m from switzerland (europe, first language is german) and i understood even the misspelled and grammatically incorrect sentences :P

  273. chaosfairy, verbal abuse aside from doctors, I’d be more concerned about being put away.
    It’s taken a lot less than just a minor scarification piece to have myself “watched” by forces that be that could have me put away for being a lunatic. And I am most certainly a mentally stable girl with nothing but good intentions.

  274. hahah, Cere is hillarious (#335)
    i wouldnt miss an episode!
    what will they cut up next??

    all in good fun guys.

  275. “A good artist has to have a certain understanding of how and why the procedure works and what will change how it works for each person, TYPICALLY the doctor just knows it will (or assumes) and does it without considering that each body is different and will respond differently, not really thinking about what outside forces could affect the results (much like I believe that the movement of the area added significantly to the keloid buildup and that the medical corset will greatly help)”

    Regarding this quote from Kiara (with whom I agree about education):

    Yes a good artist will take the hows and whys of any procedure into consideration. But are all or even most practitioners aware of the lines of tension associated with the body? Do they really know about wound healing and why an incision heals differently from a skin removal? Which is one of many reasons a vertical cut in the situation in question healed much better than the original procedure. Do practitioners know the embryological reasons that procedures done on the midline anterior aspect of the body tend to heal well and carry less risk than a similar procedure done elsewhere?

    If so, great! But….

    Yes, doctors study this extensively!! And procedures are planned and/or traditionally done in a certain manner to take advantage of this knowledge. Doctors don’t randomly pick a place to cut and just cut there. And if a less than ideal location is forced, the lines of tension are taken into account with incision placement to decrease wound contracture. (And generally keloiding, as excessive scarring is generally not a desirable side effect in the medical situation).

    I am not a doctor that practices on humans, by choice I am a veterinarian. And yes, veterinary school is harder to get into than medical school. I do skin removals on my patients on a weekly to daily basis. I have to think a lot about the stresses that will affect an incision line before I cut and I know “human doctors” do too. I also have to deal with accidental skin removals, and see the healing effects and I know how these things are typically going to heal.

    Because of my knowledge, I feel that I can recommend that skin removals not be done. I can’t force it, nor would I support legislation against it. I have no problems with cutting or branding as forms of scarification. I love the aesthetic of modified people, even though other than tattooing that is not a choice I would make for myself.

    Can we please try to open a dialogue with the medical community to help to make all procedures safe and successful rather than just hurling insults?

    I have tried to avoid ranting and throwing around a lot of esoteric medical knowledge, but ultimately have failed miserably. Thanks for reading.

  276. Happen to agree with you on everything. The goverment is there for the people, not the people for the goverment. And we live in a world, more and more so, where these principles are being betrayed by the very peole that we ellect to go and ‘protect’ us…

  277. Holy shit… how deep was the initial scarification?? I’ve never seen any scar work that bad or that deep before… Still, I wouldn’t want anyone but Lukas Zpira or Samppa helping me out with something like that, if it went that far. They have the best knowledge and expertise in that area.. I’d trust them over a doctor even.

  278. Kaira, I’ll tell you what the hang-up with certification is all about. It has nothing to do with any inherent superiority of doctors over mod practitioners (or vice versa), but rather protecting the bodmod community from a legal standpoint. Another way it might be a benefit is that it could prevent inexperienced or ill-trained mod practitioners from performing mods clearly out of their league, thereby possibly endangering their clients’ health and/or lives.

    I agree that hospitals are not the cleanest places all of the time. I also agree that doctors are never guaranteed to have compassion, ability or even ethics. I think it’s awful that it’s perfectly legal for me to have plastic implanted into my breasts, should I wish it, and were the wounds to become infected, a doctor would treat me appropriately, yet if I wanted to have silicone or steel implanted into my arm, a doctor would not only refuse, but probably recommend psychiatric treatment. I think it’s equally awful that many politicians, who have no medical OR modification experience, decide which and which are not acceptable procedures, in many cases.

    I don’t mean to suggest that Lukas or Samppa (or anyone else) should require full medical training in order to continue their practices. However, to ensure the safety, sterility and even the availablity of these procedures in the future, some sort of regulation could be invaluable; it could make it a hell of a lot easier to find a heavy mod practitioner. As an analogy, think of the difference between pre-Roe vs Wade US and today: not every state in the US allows abortion, but at least women no longer have to go underground to seek out a practitioner who may potentially endanger their life; they can use the internet to freely seek out legal resources. We can’t even do that with BME most of the time – in the QOD, for example, when someone asks for the name of a heavy mod practitioner, their question is usually deflected, and rarely, if ever, is contact info provided.

    I am not a mod practitioner, nor a doctor, or a politician, a lawer, etc., and therefore do not know the best way to go about creating certification, what it should entail, or who should be administering these standards. But I am in favour of anything that brings body modification closer to mainstream legitimacy, and more importantly, entitles practitioners and clients to the same legal protection as other invasive/surgical practices.

  279. mä oon jussin kans samaa mieltä. mikä vittu teitä amerikkalaisia oikein vaivaa?
    cere: jos sä alat pilkkaamaan mua ja lukasia huonosta englannin taidosta, niin opettele nyt ensin edes kirjoittamaan mun nimi oikein ennen kuin alat vittuilemaan.

    And Shannon: i think modbolg should be for members only. this kind information should give to professional ppl only. I thought that it was good idea to share information to all ppl, but it seems that here ppl are too stupid or they’re not ready for this kind “hardcore” stuff. I’m happy to share my knowledge, but not with idiots as i hate stupid ppl.

    here’s really america central way to think. If we start thinking that way then all body modification procedures should be banned as in america, there’s states where all kind body modification is still illegal.

    eiköhän tämä ollut tässä. Hajaantukaa, täällä ei ole enää mitään nähtävää. Sulkekaa näyttöpäätteenne ja hankkikaa ihan oikea elämä:)

  280. tyhmiä ihmisiä on joka puolella. suomessa niitä on vain paljon vähemmän, koska teitä on siellä noin 5 miljoonaa. älkää tehkö samoja virheitä kuin amerikkalaiset tekevät lokerisoimalla yhteen kategoriaan.

    Regardless, you’re right, there is something seriously wrong with most americans. Americans are constantly giving freedom away in the name of ‘safety.’ There is no line that you can draw that states, this is a necessary protective law, and this is an infringement of freedom. It’s all one big grey area, we just happen to have our grey area moving farther and farther to the right as we lose our freedoms one by one. I am making the decision to move to Finland after I complete my degree because I find the laws here unnecessarily restrictive.

    I am incredibly lucky to have a job that doesn’t care about body mods, but it doesn’t escape me that some customers I come into contact with suddenly don’t want to deal with me because of my tattoos.

  281. Hi Shannon,
    I read your letter with interest because I am in the medical profession – and I speak from 30 years of experience in surgery. I am a surgical nurse, an RN, and it’s the only kind of nursing I’ve done.
    I respect the right of anyone over 18 to give informed consent for body modification.
    Now, having said that, I will tell you there are certain situations I believe requiring some consideration: if parents, for example, want to seek advice for any procedure done for their child, isn’t it in their best interest to have a licensed practitioner perform it? Perhaps I misunderstood the scope of your letter, and if I did, then my apologies.
    I am not claiming all MDs or even all surgeons are alike. Some, indeed, are better than others for many reasons, and not purely technical reasons at that. My unfortunate experience has led me to believe that the public sometimes makes mistakes with regard to the kind of practitioner hired to assist them….licensing came into being out of a need to protect, define, advance and not restrict, the practice of good/appropriate medicine. The people being protected are folks like you and me. When a procedure goes wrong, professional boards of practice are around to look into causes, and examine the causes for multiple complaints filed about individuals. I do not know if there is a professional board for body modification practitioners, and if there is, I applaud such a group. It is vital to have standards of practice and be self-policing so poor performers are weeded out. I think Kat said it best,”But I am in favour of anything that brings body modification closer to mainstream legitimacy, and more importantly, entitles practitioners and clients to the same legal protection as other invasive/surgical practices.” I share her concern that,” another way it might be a benefit is that it could prevent inexperienced or ill-trained mod practitioners from performing mods clearly out of their league, thereby possibly endangering their clients’ health and/or lives.”
    — Indeed, this is a basic concern of all caregivers, and one of the basic principles of medicine: first do no harm.
    When someone approaches a bodymod practitioner (or healthcare worker) for assistance, there is an unspoken understanding that we help, and not harm the client.
    People have died during ‘simple’ office procedures.
    When performing heavy body modification, for example, is resuscitation equipment available? Why or/why not?
    Shock can occur from pain, fear, or simply an individual’s reaction to the experience of being cut.
    I’m not bringing up this question to antagonize anyone: these are just concerns and questions I have, being from the ‘medical- mainstream’ side of experience.
    I’m glad some useful dialogue is happening here.

  282. samppa, which idiots are you referring to? i believe some of the people you disagree with in this forum are members of bme. i’m not saying you deserve to be attacked in any way by anyone, you don’t, but you can’t filter idiots so easily, although i’m sure it would be nice.

    i’m 100% against making modblog password protected, if that ever happens, why shouldn’t bme be entirely censored aswell? …
    i joined bme/iam almost 8 years ago, and i was able to do that because it was available to non-members. you’d really risk losing a lot of great people, otherwise. it’s not for everyone, but again, i respect anyone’s right to walk away from here if they can’t handle it. the first time i came to modblog i was surprised at some commentary being as judgemental and silly as it was, but it reminded me that there’s a whole world of people who still don’t know/understand/respect modifications and/or completely hate them. almost like walking into the past or something? i spend too much time in IAM as it is.. it’s both sad and amusing to me at the same time realizing some people are disgusted about it.

    Malicat, i feel the same everyday at my job, they respect the piercings i choose to have because i am a hard worker and i get things done.. but there is always a thought in the back of my mind that the client i’m dealing with isn’t taking me seriously because i have 4 holes in my face. but, i won’t take them out or cover them up.

  283. Before I read Shannon’s editorial and harked back to this modblog entry, my initial reaction to the latest BME poll was “here we go, another black-and-white choice where the answer is really a shade of grey”.

    The question of non-medically qualified people carrying out ‘medical’ procedures is something I have considered more carefully since applying to study medicine myself. I understand that people do not feel they have the right to raise such ideas with medical professionals, and certainly in the UK where I live, I strongly believe that these procedures have no place on the NHS (though I am sure that if someone presented to A&E with complications, the NHS would be obliged to sort these out).

    I am not convinced that the methods practised by some of these extreme modification artists are satisfactory. The sterility of the initial procedure is a serious consideration (though to be fair I’ve seen doctors make some serious faux pas of that front before), but often these practitioners tour, which is not ideal. Can email exchanges truly constitute full counselling of the ‘mod-ee’ about the potential short- and long-term issues surrounding the procedure? How long do they counsel face-to-face before deciding that the individual understands the procedure and is able to look after it? Can they check the basic haematological parameters – full blood counts, clotting etc, that should be carried out before any surgical procedure? I am also concerned that the practitioners are long gone if there are complications afterwards. Nor are they able to prescribe any prophylactic drugs that might be needed in the healing period. A surgical procedure does not end with the final cut and/or wound closure. It’s a much longer process.

  284. @Malicat, reading your text this quotation came up my mind:
    “The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either.” – Benjamin Franklin

    I think it’s not ok to exclude people from a discussion just because they don’t have the same opinion as you.

  285. modblog shouldnt be for members only, first of all because this doesnt mean that it is gonna be viewd just by “professional” people or people that are more able to understand it than people who are not IAM members (there are tons of IAM members that can be more close-minded and assholes than people outside IAM..)…then, because I think that a large amount of people should have the chance to talk about these topics also if they’re not tattooed or scarred or whatever: people might be just interested in this kind of culture and the fact that they have here a good chance to read about it and talk about it its absolutely necessary, in my point of view. censorship is not the solution, isnt it?

    a part from this, Samppa you can’t expect everyone supporting your work, and you should be “openminded” enough to understand other points of view and discuss with people in a more relaxed way :) the fact that many people here dont underestand the technical problems of yr work in this case, and other more partiucular details of yr work, doesnt mean they dont have the right to tell what they think, in order to create a discussion that, in my very personal point of view, has been really interesting and useful, for ME. the fact that you submitted the pictures here on bme should have let u think people could also have bad reactions…

    the point is: stop talking about gossip and other weird stuff and keep talking about what we could do to make our “community” always much better, and if this means having to deal with rude closeminded assholes, well, thats part of the game…just sit and relax, and making modblog only for an elìte its not the solution.

    (and yeah, my english is fake, Im italian!)

  286. #358 / Malicat:

    Totta puhut, en tarkoittanutkaan lokeroida ketään tai mitään kansakuntaa kokonaisuudessaan.
    Tämän palstan jenkkikommenteista voi vain vetää suuntaa-antavia johtopäätöksiä. Liekö kateutta, puritaanisuutta vai…?
    Suvaitsevuus kunniaan ja antaa bodmod-ammattilaisten hoitaa hommansa.

  287. #366 Jasmin

    Se on suomenkieltä ja täysin kieliopin ja lauserakenteiden osalta täydellistä kieltä. Pitäisihän jenkkien nyt tämä käsittää.
    Miksi sitten arvostella ulkomaalaisen englanninkielen taitoa jos itse ei osaa yhtään ko. kirjoittajan äidinkieltä!

  288. Jussi: Yeah, sanoisin että suurin osa siitä on puritanismia. Perheeni oli kauhuissaan kun kerroin heille
    suomalaisesta saunasta, eikä lämpötila ollut suurin väristysten aiheuttaja. Jo pelkkä ajatus yhteissaunasta pelottaa suurinta osaa amerikkalaisia. Kuitenkin, vihaan sitä että tyypit joilla on lävistyksiä ja tatuointeja, rupeavat
    tappelemaan keskenään. Meillä on tarpeeksi tekemistä ‘normaaleiden’ ihmisten kanssa.

    And being rude to someone because of their grammar when they are a non-english speaker is ridiculous, especially when you don’t even speak their language. When I visit Finland, even strangers are kind to me when I speak Finnish. I realize my accent is awful, and my sentence structure is lousy, but they are all endlessly patient with me, and frequently revert to english to help me out. If you want to be a jackass to someone who isn’t using proper english grammar, try targetting people who speak english as their mother tongue and just destroy the language out of sheer laziness.

    Americans seem to despise things that are different as a whole. I had a customer trying to describe me to one of my employees, and when he mentioned my tattoos, he said, ‘what is this world coming to?’ We have enough ‘normal’ people who despise us for what we choose to do to our bodies. Do we really want to start fighting against each other as well? There is simply no need to be petty.

    And Samppa, I hit your web page last night, and I think your work is absolutely gorgeous. Have you done any work that combined scarification and tattooing? I’m suddenly debating some work on my right arm that uses both.

  289. “But body modification is not just a cultural movement — it is an industry. You buy scalpels, you charge for tattoo work, you purchase silicone and teflon, you open up shops and studios, you go on tours around the world doing work; this is not a knock — it’s just a fact.”

    come on jordan , you again … and to say this kind of bulshit . you should think a bit before talk and talking bad about what people are doing .

    la modification corporelle n est pas une industrie, c est un mouvement culturelle, un art de vivre et parfois meme un art tout simplement .

    avant de faire des modifications corporelles, j etait peintre … je veux dire artiste peintre . expositions etc . j achetais des pinceaux, de la peinture, des toiles, j avais ouvert un atelier ou je pouvais pratiquer comme l on fait avant moi et le font encore tout les artistes peintre , voir tout les artistes en general, qui bosse sur des format important et qui ne permettent pas que l on travailler chez sois . je partais egalement en “tour” pour mes expositions . et evidement je vendais le fruit de mon travail …
    rien de different dans le fond entre ma peinture et mes modifications corporelles , rien non plus de different avec les photos que je realise et qui ne sons pour moi qu une facon differente d exprimer ma vision du monde et mon desir de participer a son evolution. juste differents mediums .
    pour ce qui est de mettre modblog derriere un code ca ne changera rien a moins de verifier le niveau de pertinance face a l inconus des protagonistes . et visiblement a voir ce genre de commentaire fait par des personnes qui sont partie prenantes de cette comunaute, je pense que cela ne fera que deplacer le probleme, sans le regler . dans tout les milieux sociaux culturels il y a des cons … a mon grand desespoir . j avais en effet mis pas mal d espoir dans ce milieu .
    pour ce qui est des reglementations je me suis deja largement exprime sur le sujet … mais pour info, cette procedure a etait faite dans un pays ou, celon mon avocat, elle est legale jusqu a preuve du contraire. et si on doit faire nos procedure en afrique ou au nepal pour avoir le drois de les faire on le fera . personellement je m en bat l os de pratiquer au states ou ailleur . et les gens qui on vraiment envis qu on pratique sur eux sont toujours pret a se deplacer …
    sinon jordan, tu a finalement trouve a quoi servais ta bitte ?!

  290. In response to post 370:

    My french is not great so I may have made mistakes but I am mainly concerned with the portion you posted in English.

    Regardless of other isues you may have with Jordan, there is nothing Bullshit about his statement descirbing body modification as an industry. The body modificaiton industry exists – plain and sinmp[le as he described. There is a business at play providing a service – that does not mean, and he did not imply, that it is solely a business. There is art and culture movement in play as well.

    Being an artist is not a golden shield. There is an art industry. Body modification is special to many of us but it is not special in the sense you seem to imply, at the end of the day it is a form of artistic expression we hold dear but that does not exempt, especially when practiced as a service industry (providing tattooing, scarification, et al) from the strictures placed on every other such form

    “la modification corporelle n est pas une industrie, c est un mouvement culturelle, un art de vivre et parfois meme un art tout simplement .”

    It is not even close to being that simple. Body modification is an art form that is undeniably practiced as an industry – Come on Lukas, its your business. You know better this better than most. Save the grandiose rhetoric for art manifestos and exhibition statements, in a serious pragmatic discussion it is simply hyperbole and unrealistic to deny that body modification is an industry – come to terms with it, the painters, sculptors, etc have (hundreds to thousands of years ago)

  291. ok . so everithing is just a business …
    thats again an american way of seeing things .
    sorry if you dont like the way I express my point of view. thats not a “grandiose rhetoric” . it s just french language. but yes I agrea that it s a little bit more “rich” than english to express an idea .

  292. I have to totally agree with what Jordan is saying. Although I do use scalpels for many things in my work, I do think that there should be some legal standing on it, and that not everybody should be allowed to just pick something up and decide to do it. Call me hypocritical if you want, and even though in the end I may end up losing business or not being able to do some of the things I do day to day, I think there should be some laws put in place for what we as practitioners can and cannot do.
    As for people being able to do what they want with their bodies….. I think there is a very fine line between personal freedoms and safety. I don’t think that saying i would rather have this guy remove this as opposed to a trained doctor because you want to and thats that. I don’t think thats responsible, and I don’t think it’s ethical of the people performing the procedure. We are not doctors, we’re artists or piercers, or whatever you choose to call yourself. But I do think we have a responsibility to prove to peopel that our industry has ethics and guidelines and the more we see procedures like this pop up, the less credibility we will have.

  293. In reply to 344 and informed consent… just to be devil’s advocate…

    To be honest is informed consent an issue here? It’s not like you can haul a medical negligence case against someone who isn’t on the medical register!

  294. quand samppa ou moi meme utilisons l anglais il est trop incorect pour qu il sois acceptable par vous, quand on parle francais c est trop proche de “la rhetorique grandiose” (oups), quand on utilise le finois, c est trop bizzare. c est quoi le language officiel sur bme ?!
    c est quoi cette facon de s attaquer au gens par raport a leur language ? l anglais et la langue la plus utilisee sur le net pour des raisons pratiques … ca ne veux pas dire que c est la langue officielle partout sur la planette … enfin pas encore en tout cas. il reste quelques autres centaines de langues et au moins autant de dialectes . et pour info la langue la plus parlee au monde est pour le moment le chinois . on peut peut etre comencer par s exprimer dans cette langue au moins on sera tous au meme niveau .

  295. pardon . my answers 376 was for lizzardman.
    not for you meltbanana … I will talk in my imperfect english in the future …

  296. Quoting Lukas from #372:

    ok . so everithing is just a business …
    thats again an american way of seeing things .
    sorry if you dont like the way I express my point of view. thats not a “grandiose rhetoricâ€? . it s just french language. but yes I agrea that it s a little bit more “richâ€? than english to express an idea .

    I clearly did not say everyhting is just a business – In fact, I clearly stated that body modification was not just a business. I don’t know if this is a translation issue but if not don’t put words in my mouth just so you can try and shore up your point. What I said, and will say again as clearly as I think is possible is that body modification is an industry, it also happens to be an art form – it is an art form which is practiced as an industry by yourself (Lukas) and others – you make your living doing business providing the art as a service to others. To deny the business of body modification flies in the face of your own actions.

    As for american points of view – well, I am american so any view I take is by definition an american point of view – anyway, thats not a valid criticism. Just because a point of view is american doesn’t make it wrong any more than a french point of view os wrong for being french – how about making substantial criticisms, how about addressing facts rather than going for snide cultural commentary jabs.

    I don’t mind how you express your point of view (though it would be much easier for to make sense of it if posted in english, as french is something I hve not studied in over a decade) My impression is that you were/are denying that there is a body modification industry and/or claiming that body modification is purely an art and therefor free from the regulation, controls, and others limits we place upon practices which are businesses and in making these claims you did not address Jordans points but rather spoke in the manner of an art manifesto ignoring his actual points and claiming he was talking bullshit. This is rude & dismissive but most of all wrong since you have not addressed his point which was quite valid on its face.

    As for french being more “rich” than english for expressing points – matter of opinion. My only preference is for clarity and english is far easier for being my native tongue. I am more well acquainted than I would have ever wanted to be with the fact that not all people speak english (not that they should) and the problem of not being able to fully discourse with you in a language of your preference is my own shortcoming but as your “imperfect english” is leaps and bounds ahead of my neglected and derelict french ( I only barely think I got the gist of #376) I am glad to see you have opted to post in english in future

  297. Here is simply something I’d like to point out.

    As Samppa wrote in his #251 post. Samppa you wrote basically about how procedures like: Scarification, Implant, etc are Body Modification….And that if we publically REMOVE these things from the website, that it’ll kill Body Modification. As all we’d be showing is Navel piercing after Navel Piercing.

    What I’d like to pose is this…What is wrong with navel piercings?

    Navel piercings are body modification.

    Eyebrow piercings are body modification.


    At what point have we as artists, who mostly started out as a Body Piercers, felt that Body Piercing is the “past” and that the future is pushing the envelope and even potentially eventually(if not already) causing death?

    I love the more heavier versions of Body Modification. However I strongly believe that we cannot walk away from Navel piercings.

    Nowadays so many body piercers feel they need to push an push an push, to reach Samppa and Lukas’ level. Yet so many of them don’t even understand basic concepts of body piercing, let alone how to properly hold a scalpel. Not to mention they only have any anatomy knowledge base on a case by case basis, by actually DOING the work.

    And because of everyone rushing to do things bigger, badder and more hardcore’er…The climax is going to soon come and I predict a heavy exodus of the good practioners going “underground” again, to hide themselves from the people putting their names out there in the public eye.

    In closing I say you should NOT bash or trash the Body Piercing side of things, compared to the more extreme forms of Modification. Because at least Body Piercing is more accepted and appreciated right now that more heavier forms of Body Modification.

    Nor should any Body Modification Practioner have the GULL to even trash talk the Body Piercing industry as that’s VERY hypocritical. As like I said the majority of those practioners, started out piercing.

    Know your roots…RESPECT your roots…LOVE YOUR ROOTS!

    Now also to the one person who also asked about if other professional’s views of Samppa and Lukas have changed….

    Now I am not doing these heavier modifications, yet. However I will say I’ve talked to Samppa privately and I respect his views on Modification.

    I’ve also talked to Lukas before and also I will say if it WASN’T for Lukas, it would have taken me longer to find out about Scarification. Just like Samppa I definately respect Lukas’ views on Modification…

    Both their views and their abilities. Them along with guys like Steve Haworth, Tom B, as well as the many others have pushed the envelopes for years. I personally believe they are the modern day Jim Wards and Fakir’s,etc. Except for the heavier forms of Body Modification, not just body piercing.

    Have my views on them changed? No, Absolutely not! As I clearly know that with this form of the industry… Serious complications can occur even with work that has been done by the “BEST” artist around. It just shows that as much as we THINK we know what we’re doing, in this medium of art, however there’s no previous precedence of how-to or what-to in this…Save for a few shows of: “Trauma Life In The ER” and those types of glorious shows.

    Unless the artist has specifically taken some formal medical training.

  298. malicat: ota muhun yhteytta privaatisti, esim iam tai email, niin jutellaan tosta jutusta lisaa.

    And why ppl now want that me and lukas start writing in english? just they told how bad english we writing, so better if we writing language what we can well. u should to learning finnish and french then…

    warren: obviously u lost the point with my example about navel piercing…there’s nothing wrong with navel piercing. but it’s most common piercing ever, so that’s why u used it as example. do u think that if on bme would be pics of navel piercing only, or even any normal piercing, legal body modification. no any extreme at all, that it would be so interesting and popular anymore? unforunately bme don’t run only with pics of usual piercings

  299. Ok, and I am really late on this. I’ve been working on getting the literature together for a really choice rant on the state of medical education and medical knowledge of body modification. That said, I do think that extreme mods should be in the hands of the most experience surgical practitioners…surgeons.

    That said, for the most part surgeons are mod hostile. I don’t think it’s even a liability thing, it’s a bias thing. For reasons that I can’t explain gravity defying space boobs are fine but implant horns are not. “Permanent cosmetics” are fine but tattoos of anything else aren’t. It’s BS really but the bias in my profession is around some misbegotten idea of societal norms.

    There are those of us out there who will work with people to try get them what they want. I do piercing routinely in my practice and a few other things too. We don’t talk about it, people find us. I’d love to be in a position to advertise modification services but there are significant business reasons why not to.

    From a safety standpoint, there are plenty of reasons not to have the garden variety mod artist doing scar revisions and ear pinning and other surgical stuff. There’s generally less surgical experience than a surgeon, there’s generally less knowledge of anatomy and frankly there’s a legal hurdle of doing things that fall within the realm of medical practice.

    I do think people should be allowed to do what they want with their bodies but for the medicine practice side of things, the reason that I had to go to school for ages and get the license and stay trained year-after-year is basically a stamp of quality assurance. No such thing exists on the body mod side, at least not yet so there’s nothing but portfolios to make the case. I can tell you for certain that a portfolio isn’t good enough, photoshop does wonders.

    So I’m mostly hemming and hawing but seriously there’s a line here that my profession needs to meet the mod community at so that everybody can get what they want and it can be done right, safely and esthetically.

  300. ok . stop “la joute verbale” .
    I never say that bodmod should be “free from the regulation, controls, and others limits” I just say that it s complitly pointless … witch regulation and where ?! I already says many things about this issue . but again , it s pointless . you are in us , Im in based in france but work everywhere in the world , samppa is from finland but work in england , some people do mods in south america . is absolutly no way to create a worldwide regulation , and wen I read people says that we are dangerous because we cross the line thats also wrong … witch line . us line , maybe , but we did the procedure in one place where it s was aparently legal to perform it . so again , witch line . the line betwen the black and the white in some binary minded people maybe .
    do your regulation if you want , but again and again thats pointless . if I want to cary a gun , I will go in texas, if I want to see naked girls streap tease I will go to florida, if I want to get bodmods I will go where it s possible to get it . and our customer will do the same . period .

  301. Samppa: I used navel piercings as an example yes.

    But I will expand further and say that many people I have come into my shop often bring in photo’s or say: “I saw this piercing on BMEZINE.com(or they say the internet and I find out it’s BMEZINE.com)

    Yes The Extreme and Hard portions of BME generate A LOT of business. But the sheer amount of images sent to BME of standard piercings, proves that MANY people are looking at the basic piercing/tattoo side of BME as well.

    To say BME would simply shrivel up an DIE if it was to remove the BME Extreme or Hard sections, I view as a misconception. The “regular” section of BME is just as important as the Extreme and Hard sections. BME I personally think would not function without all three working as a overall unit.

    Personally I’m not saying we SHOULD remove them, as it clearly shows the good and the bads of these modifications, just like there’s good and bad on the piercing/tattoo side of things.

    Do I think these photo’s should be posted on BME…If You, Lukas and Bastien approved of the photo’s being put up, then sure they DO belong on here.

    But personally I feel that as much as I’d want to know who was doing this work, I personally already know that even problems can occur with the best artists out there. So I don’t think names should be given, in terms of heavy surgical mod work. For the safety of both the artists and the clients.

    More so what I think should be focused on is that as much as artists will say they have experience in this field. Unless they’ve spent the YEARS in school studying medicine, they have no formal experience.

    All the artists do is go: “well this SHOULD happen this way”…But what happens when it just simply doesn’t go the way the artist thought it was going to go?

    I’ve even heard doctors say that as much as they know the body, we as humans really DON’T know the body. Because things happen differently from person to person.

    One person dies of cancer, while the other is able to battle it and survive.

    One’s able to go through surgery and come out fine. While the other obtains a very horrible infection which results in loss of limbs or potentially life.

    Confidence is key…But an artist who is over confident and thinking they are king shit and can do ANYTHING and it will all heal perfectly, is a problem waiting to occur.

    Now this statement isn’t directed at you, Samppa, or Lukas. As I both believe you are excellent artists in your craft.

    However as I stated before far too many piercers and others are thinking they can mimic the same thing and get the same results….Which is a problem.

    They see Lukas travelling all over the world and doing mods, as well as others who travel and do guest spots from time to time…and they want to live the “rockstar” lifestyle of being a “BodMod Practioner”

    I just personally believe in the heavy forms of work, caution as well as proper consultations are in order.

    You guys discussed this with the client and did a EXCELLENT job dealing with the issue…But ask yourself, does EVERYONE do this?

    Do they offer to do the procedure and let the client stay with them as long as they need to, for observation?

    How many “artists” do the work and just send the client on their way? I’ve known of many clients who have gotten work done and as soon as they were done, after a few minutes of chit-chat, they left.

    I think if practioners are going to do these types of mods they are going to have to assume total and complete responsibility for the client…By which I mean in regards to bedside manner as well as keeping them for observation.

    As for Lizardman: You hit the nail on the head with the article. :)

  302. the sutures on bastien have now been removed . and belive it or not he s steal alive, in a perfect shape and didnt get any crazy infection caused by our crazy stupid and wrong procedure … he told me that the skars are looking really good . he s going to send some pictures to shannon in a few days … I guess he deserve a lifetime membership on iam for that ;) … anyway if some people was right , he may no survive long enouth to enjoy it !

  303. I am very happy to read, Bastien is doing well. The way his body healed the scarification was terrible, and I would even say dangerous (tumorlike). Best is to remove the shit, and this was PROPERLY done.

    What was it? A dangerous surdical action, or nothing more than also a little bit deeper skin removal, things done often by experienced professionals?

    I would vote for the second possibility – and thus it was done by the perfectly right person.

    Yes it would be nice to have an official medical education for bodymod professionals, some kind of 1 or 2 years college particularly for the needed abilities. Yes it would be nice iof there would be an official kind of job “body modifier”, with an education and final examination, as in use for so many other jobs. So complain at the level of politics, they are ignoring and hoping that in the legal greyzone the trend will vanish again.

    With or wothout examination, Lukas is the right one to do such specific mods, likely with more knowledge about scars than doctors have.

    Jeah and at the very beginning of this diskussion. The one ywho would lika a PhD for medical treatments – grandious idea. Please let me watch (and take on movie) when a PhD in ancient greek history will do the process on you *muahahahaaaaaa*, I really like this kind of people with big mouth but without brain.

    PS.: *Wondering where Bastiens IAM site went to*…

  304. I have to agree with Stormchaser, in that Lukas and Samppa are the better people to do these types of procedures. Granted, it might be safer sometimes to go to trained doctors, but why go to a doctor of medicine when what you’re looking for is art?

    We go to the artists because they know what we want, and they know their trade. We’re all here for the same reason, to protect our rights to have these procedures done and to be able to express ourselves through our bodies in whatever way we see fit. This is our choice, and choosing artistic modifications over medical procedures is our right. Without people like Lukas, The Lizardman, and Sampaa where the hell would we be?

    And in response to #379, yes, it’s important to respect our roots and remember where we started, and I agree, there’s nothing wrong with navel piercings or other modifications that don’t require much time as a procedure like scarification, but there’s so much more out there in our world. There’s an endless spectrum that we can follow that has not only navel piercings, but also surface piercings, scar work, subincisions, full body tattoos, transdermal/subdermal implants. If you restrict us on those things, we’ll lose what makes us unique. And all of us will end up looking the same just like before we became modified.

    Bottom line, all of this is the same thing, and we’re all in this together. Like it or not, we’re a make-shift family, and we need to support each other even if one of us doesn’t agree with what the other is doing.

  305. In the words of Mumia Abu Jamal…
    “People can talk about rights ’til the cows come home, but when people try to EXERCISE those rights and they’re not allowed we find that those ‘rights’ were not rights, after all. They’re rhetoric, platitude…put out there by the government that have people THINK that they are free.”

    I couldn’t have said it any better…and for those of you unfamiliar with who Mumia Abu Jamal is, he’s a deathrow inmate with a pretty clear case of wrongful conviction. If anyone is interested in his story there’s many websites where people are trying to fight for this man’s right to a fair trial…http://www.myspace.com/nojustice_nopeace has a list of them. Thank you for anyone who checks it out.

  306. It definitely is appropriate, and I don’t think anyone could have said it better than that.

  307. Jackrabbit: “we’ll lose what makes us unique.

    What makes you feel you are not already unique, that you feel you want to springboard by doing such works as you described to BE UNIQUE.

    I don’t want to be unique. I just want to be me

    If that means getting a navel piercing, rock on. If it means getting a subincision, sweet!

    Personally when someone “strives” to be unique, to me it shows they are just trying to be different/better than anyone else.

    This uniqueness pushes people to do things bigger, badder, harder,etc because sadly so many people now in the “community/scene” feel like it’s some race/competition.

    I do what I do to my body, much like how Shannon has said in the past…He in his head felt a NEED to do this…Not to be unique…Not to be different…Not to even be apart of a scene…He simply did it, to be himself. Shannon, myself, and MANY MANY others feel this way…perhaps even you too?

    But to say you lose your uniqueness is silly. We’re all special. We’re all unique…yet we’re all so very much the same….This is what makes humans, humans.

    Also I think the point was mistaken, since you perhaps are not involved in the business. I was clearly pointing out that many artists who offer the more extreme services, started out as body piercers.

    Many of them nowadays, I personally feel, view Body Piercing as a lesser artform. That the only TRUE way to produce art is to carve someone up, implant them, whatever.

    To which I clearly say don’t be hypocritical…You started out as a piercer, never turn your back on what brought you to the game.

    If I ever do decide that I want to delve into the artform that has been described…I personally know I will never turn down a simple Navel, Nostril, Lip, any other “basic” piercing.

    And I’m not talking “Ok we’ll do it…But it has to be a large gauge….and I HAVE to use a scalpel…

    I love what I do and I will NEVER turn my back on it…Why is it so few piercers nowadays put as much love into their craft? As every apprentice now doesn’t want to learn basics…They want to jump right into heavy work….Ask many piercing apprentices what their future goals are…They all instantly say: “I want to do scarification! Implants,etc!

    Where are the apprentices who’s goals are: “to be the BEST piercer and provide the BEST work for my clients!

    Also and finally to consider what was done in the above photo’s as being art is a crock of shit and way off the reality deep end.

    What Lukas and Samppa did for this gentleman is called: RECONSTRUCTIVE SURGERY!

    Lets just stop placing heavy duty medical procedures behind theIt’s Art” curtain ok?

    This man had a SERIOUS medical problem, Lukas and Samppa lifted this problem away. Case closed, that’s it. There is NO art in extracting massive keloids from the body.

    I just hope that based on this experience, his skin type,etc…That the keloids do not form again…Bigger and Badder than before….But this issue is simply how the body works, it has nothing to do with Samppa and Lukas’ work or abilities.

  308. Ah, I mistook what you said. And you’re right, the way we already are is what makes us unique, and I in no way meant to imply that that’s the only reason we do this. If it came off that way, my apologies. Also, I didn’t mean the reconstruction was art in itself, that was a necessity because something went horribly wrong while healing. But you’re right, I actually misread what you said earlier, and I agree that every artist or professional needs to remember where they started and not dismiss anything because it isn’t big and involved. Every modification is important and special in it’s own right and people do need to remember that. Sometimes, I forget too and need to be reminded.

    And I’m right with you in hoping to hell those keloids don’t reform. Apparently things seem to be going well so far, but one can only hope it stays that way.

  309. I’ve had a couple minor surgeries performed by a nurse practitioner and never had a doctor give me stitches always a nurse for that and if you ever need an IV put in get an EMT to do it they are the best (they train on doing it in the back of a moving vehicle imagine how good they are when you’re just sitting still). This is not a major operation, it doesn’t require in depth knowledge of anatomy or diseases to perform just experience, proper sterilization, a steady hand, and good knowledge of sutures, that’s all. They did a wonderful job going from the photos. I’m all for going to a doctor when it’s neccesary and if the keloids reform then by all means he should consult a doctor since there may be some underlying issue that’s causing him to form them to that extreme that a doctos may have a solution for.

  310. Ooops, I hit submit too soon. I’d like to add that I’d love to continue seeing this sort of thing in the future. Body mods don’t work out perfectly all the time and people should get to see all their options for repairing the damage. Not everyone has to like or approve of every method out there but they should be explored so people have a full view of what possibly can wrong and all the ways to deal with it. That way should it happen to any of us who frequent this blog we don’t overlook something that may work for us and also rule out some things that may not.

  311. Considering I spent an hour of my life reading through this junk, I’m going to give my opinion. For those of you saying “Go to doctors when you can use the proper medical channels” do any of you have any IDEA how many babies are delivered by nurses in America alone? I’ve delivered 12 myself, and to some very shocked mothers who were expecting the doctor to do it. The doctor just came in at last minute to do the Apgar scores and to make sure I was suturing the episiotomy properly. This may seem like a way off base comparison, but in my mind it makes a valid point. Just because you “think” you’re paying for one thing doesn’t necissarily mean that’s what you’re going to get. I’ve put pressure on a friend’s nearly sliced in half leg to stop bleeding, in the middle of the woods on a fishing trip, just to save his life. Highly unsterile? Of course. Did I know better? Of course. Did I have any other options? Absolutely not, other then watch him bleed to death before Air Evac came and got him. After spending years surfing this site, I have seen procedures I would dub more horrifying than this one. A subincision comes to mind, or a leg amputation. HIGHLY more dangerous, HIGHLY more infectious, and much MUCH higher risks of MI, bleed outs, you name it. But they didn’t recieve half as much flak as this skin removal does. And for those of you insisting on artists being more regulated, fine. Petition your governments to start sterile technique certification courses. If someone wants to do skin removals and the like professionally, have them apprentice under a surgeon for a while. Subincisions? Ok then, urologists. Vaginal motification? Gynecologists. You see where I’m going with this, and I’m sure you’ll also agree that the ideals of the situations are far off reach. I’ll agree, basic anatomy and physiology would be wonderful, even basic life support training. But rather then a nursing degree, how about a Surgical Technician requirement? And even these don’t garantee anything. For example, I busted my ass in Pharmacology to get a license to push medication, but my state is now going to start implementing CNA’s to do drug passes so us nurses will be free’d up to do more body audits and the like. My opinion is the body audits don’t mean shit if a patient is in Anaphylactic shock, or dead, because some untrained nurse’s AIDE gave them the wrong dose. This still doesn’t stop it from being a very real situation I’m going to end up dealing with. I know I’m kind of jumping around the board here, but I’m too tired and pissed off to give a damn. That center keloid is OBVIOUSLY very near (if not directly on) the Xyphoid Process. My complete outlook on this is it remains up to the individual to chose who does what to their bodies. Having a stuffy attitude about it won’t make it any different. I’m sure Bastian knew samppa and zpira’s abilities, and didn’t go into this lightly. Everything I have ever heard about both of those artists has never been anything other then praise. Like it’s been stated before, this is supposed to be a very open minded community, when the hell did that go down the tubes? I think a subincision, amputation, or a transscrotal is insane, but not because I think the people who do it are wrong or nuts, but because it’s beyond the reach of MY OWN MIND to incorporate that into my physical abilities. So would I treat someone with such a modification like shit? Fuck no, because what they have done MAKES THEM FEEL HAPPY, FULFILLED, AND SATISFIED with themselves. We constantly jump on our mighty high horses, bemoaning the world today with it’s inability to accept our piercings or tattoos, but where is the acceptance here? I have yet to see it in the majority of the posts that have been made. Everyone is so quick to jump on their moral high horses that they can’t see the real point, that Bastian did something that made him spiritually and physically BETTER!

  312. Im impressed by the work done on the guy’s chest.
    I been thinking about finding a body mod artist to do my chest revision to remove a fat skin tag and have some fat scalped out on my side. I thought I have to go to regular plastic surgeon for the work to be done. now I wonder if any body mod artist will be doing bigger surgery like mastectomies or some lipsuction. I went to regular surgeon for my mastectomies last year and Im happy that I did it.

  313. For people saying that the practiciners were “negligent”: Interesting, not having a medical license by itself is NOT grounds for a malpractice tort suit in the United States. In other words, the fact that they did not have a license is not de facto evidence of negligence.

  314. I’ve put pressure on a friend’s nearly sliced in half leg to stop bleeding, in the middle of the woods on a fishing trip, just to save his life. Highly unsterile? Of course. Did I know better? Of course. Did I have any other options? Absolutely not, other then watch him bleed to death before Air Evac came and got him.

    i don’t personally see the keloids themselves as “life threatening” or bastien’s situation really even close to near death if he hadn’t had them removed. it’s a different situation, he definitely had more time to think about it than mere seconds.. and i’m sure he wasn’t BLEEDING TO DEATH emotionally over it. seems like a tough enough guy and he probably could have handled living with them a little longer. i understand why he wasn’t happy and it was his choice etc, but i just don’t see the relation in your analogy there considering he had options.

    i hope not everybody runs out to their local bod mod shop to get stuff hacked off them (above post).. and i certainly hope if an artist is doing LIPO that they get a license for their own sake.

    anyway, i’m surprised so many people in here have had such SHIT doctors, i’m going to consider myself VERY LUCKY i have a surgeon and family doctor i trust who DO support my choices in body modification and would definitely not laugh me out of their office or send me to the psych ward.

  315. I, personally, would like to be able to make my own decisions for what happens to my body. Whether I decide to modify any way I want or have an abortion…that decision should be my own.

    Isn’t there a saying, “What is a slut? A person with one more sex partner than you.”
    In a roundabout way, it seems to apply here. Think about it.

    My body is my own. If (and how) I want to paint it, poke it, cut it, sew it, prick it, stick it, slice it, dice it…it should be my choice.

    If you’re not okay with my decisions, then don’t paint, poke, cut, sew, prick, stick, slice or dice yourself in the manner that I choose.

  316. I didn’t read through that many posts. I’ve seen this input before.

    There’s no particularly right way to lead one’s life. To put your mindset between someone else and what they want is wrong.

    Some people think a community is about common interests, and in the case of bme I think that’s certainly true. We may have been drawn here because of what we have in common, but we function because of individual commitment to individual interests.

    I pulled up a chair, I sat down at the table. We can either have a nice meal or criticize the cooking. Don’t make your world so small you need to shrink other people’s, too.

  317. hy,
    as lukas said i feel really great now, all the stiches are out and the scars look like scars not like alien as first, even if i got long scars too, i like it, cool stuff cause it look like my other work like tattoos.
    i use tape to tie the scars, which are more than 3 weeks old, and use a very good mix of medecinal oils especially for cheloides.
    to shannon and everyone, pictures soon, maybe post wednesday
    have i hearded someone talk about inf…. i think it was infection, i can’t remember, whatever.. :)

  318. Pingback: Realize me

  319. I am very glad to hear you are doing well, Bastien! Does it feel good to have so many BMEers so passionately interested in your health and welfare? :-)

    ” this kind information should give to professional ppl only. I thought that it was good idea to share information to all ppl, but it seems that here ppl are too stupid or they’re not ready for this kind “hardcoreâ€? stuff. I’m happy to share my knowledge, but not with idiots as i hate stupid ppl.” -Samppa

    Hmm, so Samppa wants a seperate section of BME for professionals? Okeydoke. But, umm, what about all that rhetoric about not needing society telling us who can or cannot do things based on their level of training, experience and licensure? Maybe “professional” is defined as anyone who is as trained as he is, but not anyone who is less trained? And, I am curious how this section would admit new members. Would everyone who wants to join
    send a copy of their business license, health inspections, etc? Unless I misread, Samppa has implied he practices in places where such things are not regulated, so how would he provide this proof?

    As for limiting the debate to folks with memberships, well, I don’t see that that would have changed the discussion in the least. There have been some very well known members of the BME community (Erik, Kat, Moddoctor, Shannon) on both sides of the issue, and most with mixed opinions. All a password protected discussion forum would do is limit those who come here to learn about the bodmod industry and community. One of the best ways to learn about a new community is by observing its internal discussion.

    On the other hand, I am guessing this thread alone has to be a large chunk of the server’s daily bandwidth. lol

  320. Hello. I’m here from the BME article today, to post on both this above issue and the things that Shannon raised in the article. I’d like to raise another point entirely, leaving modification momentarily behind to make a medical comparison.

    Giving birth was not always considered a full-on “medical” procedure, requiring doctors, needles, drugs, and bed rest. For centuries, women *somehow survived* without the careful monitoring that they are now assumed to need. The process of birthing was attended to by skilled–but not certified–trained midwives and doulas. To reiterate: the biological process of popping out a baby was, largely, watched over by non-doctors, and lo, many, many people did not die in childbirth (though some did). Money changed hands for these services. There is a documented history (which I am not familiar enough with to quote exactly here–I point you, for further reading, to “For Her Own Good,” edited by Barbara Eirenriech (sp?)) of birthing–a personal, non-medical procedure–being taken from the hands of midwives and the pregnant women (by the at-that-time-newly-formed and all-male AMA) and being handed over to the medical establishment (again, the AMA), with its degrees and certification (both of which were unavailable to the historic, now disenfranchised, practicioners of birth) and its “we know best, your methods are dangerous” attitude. Today, birth is treated like an ailment, and unless a pregnant person makes the effort, the default procedure will involve her being drugged, among other things, just because the people who preside over birth are degreed, certified, and accepted as the ones who know enough to do the things they have decreed that a pregnancy *requires*, and still, many, many people do not die during childbirth (though some do).

    To recap: pregnant women used to go to people who were well versed in birth, but not sanctioned by a governing body. The medical establishment decided that this was dangerous to its authority, and the AMA discredited midwives and began to dictate how births *should* be done (and, thus, to whom the money should go). In this manner, a natural process (one that *could* just happen without intervention) was taken out of the hands of the people who were best trained and best suited to deal with it and placed under control of the establishment, which refused the help and information of the prior practicioners and made up its own protocol.

    I’m not pretending that pregnancy is like desiring and getting scar work, so save us all some time and do not respond with that point. But I immediately thought of the birth thing when I read Shannon’s article. I think this is an apt comparison: a procedure in which the subject and the practicioner(s) are both deeply involved; the practicioner(s) is(are) skilled but not necessarily certified/sanctioned by a governing body; and a fight, now, about how the subject *needs* to go to a sanctioned professional because only that professional (not the practicioners, “professional” as they may be) knows what’s best.

    The core issue, as Shannon has said and as many people have reiterated and as I firmly believe, is indeed “who has the power over my body.”

    Is it the AMA, which may or may not have the skills and information to give me what I want in all circumstances? I’d go to them for an open heart surgery, but I wouldn’t go to them for a piercing or a birth.

    Is it my mod practicioner, who can give me what I want but is not papered by my government? I’d go to a tattoo artist for a tattoo, but I’d get the antibiotics to treat an infection in that tattoo from someone authorized to write a scrip for me (NB: never had this problem, just using an example).

    Is it my mod community, which can educate me and educate itself, respond to technological changes, and give feedback to those both inside and outside of the community? I’d certainly go to the community for practicioner recommendations, support, and understanding, but I sure wouldn’t let them tell me what scars, ink, and steel (titanium…) to get.

    Is it me? Fuck yes it’s me. I am the only person with the authority to decide what my body needs and to whom I will listen when my body needs something I cannot provide. I am in charge of whom I choose to hand my body over to (over to whom I choose to hand my body?).

    So to those saying unequivocally that Bastien *needed* a doctor: I would like you to rethink your belief that the AMA (or the medical association of your home country–I will only speak for mine) knows best for the sole reason that it is the AMA. Of course the certifying body certifies itself…

    To those saying that Lukas and Sampaa were irresponsible for taking on something that, in your view, is surgery: I would like you to rethink what you consider surgery. What has informed your ideas of where the line of “medical procedure” is? Is this a personal line and if so, is it right for you to impose your lines on others?

    Choice choice choice (the concept of free will, not the person who posts under that name…). Use it while you can and take care of yourself in the manner you find most appropriate.

    I’ve read about half of the above comments; forgive any reiterations I might have inadvertantly made.

  321. looking at this procedure from a medical point of view, i would wager this problem is likely to recur.

    In discussion with plastic surgeon on this particular topic a few months back, he told me that there have been various debates as to the process of scar resection – a wider margin leaves the chance that an even WIDER keloid will regrow, but the point of operating the first place is to ensure removal of the keloid in it’s entirety, so the surgical management is, apparently, still an ongoing discussion.

    In case that should happen, the “modifyee” should be prepared to look into the eventuality that he might have to consult and weigh out his options with a competent (read: trustworthy) plastic surgeon who will probably recommend local injection of drugs at the scar site and, again surgery if at all feasible at that point.

    Considering the extent of the keloiding, i’m not certain whether radiotherapy (which is considered a last resort – yet also has the potential to offer satisfying results) would even be considered.

    It’s an interesting medical conundrum… i apologise for being so analytical though.

    good luck to all those involved.

  322. I’m so glad you’re alright, Bastien. Every one of us are wishing you the best, and I’m sure we’re all ecstatic that you’re happy and healthy!!

  323. Education, education, education!
    If your not willing to educate yourself on what you’re doing to yourself then you must resort to the local tattoo shoop…

    This blog and this blog only has inspired me.
    “Anything that can be done can be taught and this is where we must learn. By sharing our experiences, we as a community, must share are reactions and learn…

    I’m glad to hear that your 60 stitches are all right Bastien.

    Thank you for sharing your experience with us, no matter how we react to your decision or the two body modification doctors that have created you!

  324. Ouch. That looks fucking gross, but it’s his right to have this done by someone other than a doctor. Doctors don’t know mods very well compared to practitioners themselves.

  325. procedure looks quite brutul but in full agreement with the statement that it was his choice to seek out help from bod-mod practitioners rather than go to a doctor, and he, as all people should have the right to make the decisions about their own bodies.

  326. Shannon, please don’t regulate ModBlog. If anything, people need to be educated about these things. Education is the first step in acceptance, and acceptance (or at least tolerance) is a very good thing.

  327. most people’s reaction are full of hate , ingnorance , intolerance , and stupidity when they see things that they are not able to understand … this kind of reaction coming from people who are involved in bme is really interesting . we thought these people more open minded than “mainstream” people . but they are not . I really think that most of the people are not ready to change and to understand what what we are doing is about . they are still full of judeo christian prejudices and most likely prefer to create new rules instead of changing old ones …

  328. I think that if that guy wanted to go to the practitioners, good, but they should not get offended and react in that way to the people who think this procedure is a doctor’s field, c’mon! not everyone is gonna kiss your asses! It seems that you are more intolerant than the people you criticise just because they don’t think that you should be praised for your skills.

  329. Okay I almost died when I seen that poor bastards keloid action. So much in fact I even called my husband over to take a look at what Shannon had posted.

    First off it served as a good warning to others, it CAN happen to any of us no matter who is doing your work. I’ve seen some beautiful scarification work and some damn ugly ass ones as well. You can’t win them all.

    Most of us live in Canada/US so most people are quick to point out that a doctor/surgeon could have done a better job however taking into consideration their geographic location maybe such services are not readily avaliable. Surgery can take months to book let alone recieve. It’s obvious to me that when something is resticting my way of life I will do whatever it takes within reason to fix it. Scarification is an art form all of it’s own and if your qualified and experienced with it, I would like to think that these two gentleman wouldn’t have offered to take something on this big and risk their reputation.

    I hope that in the end this poor guy has a better outcome with the removal than he did with the inital work to start with. Anything has got to be better than what he had when he first walked in there.

    No they are not doctors, but they’re removing fucking keloids, not offering breast implants.

  330. ^exaggerated. i’ve read every comment in here, and i don’t see most, if any reactions full of hate coming from members of bme.

    i see concern, maybe some skepticism.. please don’t judge others how you wish not to be judged. xo.

  331. i am reminded of the illinois tongue splitting law. it doesn’t say you can’t have it done. it only says a licensed medical practitioner can do it. bod mod and medicine are two separate and distinct practices. i personally don’t think a bod mod practioner should perform such a procedure from a practical standpoint, but to each their own.

  332. I saw this guy at a party last night.He’s fine and well, happy, feeling much better already.Lukas Zpira and Sampa did a great job!!!

  333. exagerated ?! I read so many stupids comment in so many page and about so many artists … pierre black in some iam peoples pages, howie, steve etc …
    the last thing I found ?! this on iam , written by yttrx on is page :

    –Anyone considering surgery by Lukas may want to think twice–both times about the–so far–THREE people to whom he’s allegedly given gangrene!
    –Sampa is a dirty boy! Sources tell me he was seen a few weeks ago doing a public breast skewering with NO GLOVES! Naughty!
    –Rumor has it that Howie was seen at a Swiss mod meet a couple of months ago suspending a FIFTEEN YEAR OLD KID! Maybe it’s legal there. Are tongue splits on 16 year olds legal here? (editor’s note: there are now conflicting stories surrounding the age of the kid, which may indeed have been close to 18, and with parental consent)

  334. Lukas: I agree. As one of the people attending the swiss meeting, this rumor additions on that strange f***ing page seems to be nothing more than an addiction to popularity and lowest style quarreling. One of this poor guys who needs 25 entries in his forums to be happy at all. Sounds like the style os a “sun” reporter. There will always be dumb asses be misusing IAM as a public toilet.

  335. Adittional thought: Misusing his IAM-diary to publish or even create bad rumors without any facts should be a reason to be banned from IAM.

  336. The unfortunate fact is; if unlisenced practicioners continue to to undertake extreme mod procedures or corrective surgeries like this, people are going to die. And their surviving relatives are going to get the practictioners put out of business and sent to jail. Jordan is right, the industry can’t go on like this.

    “Consent” and truly INFORMED consent are not necessarily the same thing, you cannot garuntee thyat every single person who undertakes an extreme precedure is truly aware that it may kill them.

    I DON’T think every person should be free to do whatever they like to someone else just because they say it’s OK. It would not be OK for a random guy to give me a heart transplant, even if I was aware of the risks.

    If doctors are hostile to BM, change that, Practicing doctors minds may be made up, but why can’t a BM practicioner get a medical degree or work to get the laws changed to bring extreme BM under the umbrella of legislation that covers other cosmetic surgeries?

  337. i did read EVERY comment.

    if you’re referring to people’s personal pages, that’s different, i have not read their pages.

  338. K from some of the things said u agree that people dont have full rites of themselves by saying that they shouldnt be trusted to make their own desicions.

    tru, some procedures leave people more at risks than others but thats all something the practitioner should inform the people of. if they assume that the person asking for the work then whos to blame for being ignorant? the ignorance of the person wanting it or the practitioner for not informing them.

    when it comes to heavy body modifications people have gotten into some serious things, but at the same time theres alot more kids out there putting themselves at risks by DIY projects with dirty tools, and non sanitized/sterile environments.

    also doctors have people sign waivers saying that if they were to die while undergoing surgery that the doctors r not to be heald responsible, to me this says that they have a higher power than a BM practitioner would. because they have a degree means its ok for people to die on a table, but anyone else its seen as attempt at murder if not murder, assault, along with some of the other things mentioned by shannon in his latest story, previous to the sexually explicit tattoos

  339. I respect the right to do whatever everyone wants to their own bodies, but to me, it seems pretty irresponsible to practice surgery, because that’s surgery, call it art, call it whatever you want, it’s still surgery, wearing nothing but some gloves and in that environment. It doesn’t matter if they have 30 years doing that, they don’t have the knowledge a surgeon has. They must learn for more than 10 years, I respect the work of the artists here mentioned, but I don’t think that they know as much as a surgeon, they just cut, chop it off and suture. Of course people die in hospitals, but you can’t seriously say that because people die in hospitals then patients are better off in the hands of practitioners with no formal training. What’s next? shamans? If someone wants to go and have surgery, it’s their right to go and have a carpenter to do it with a chainsaw if they want to, but please, don’t say that people here are more experienced that doctors who have a lot of formal training that comes from centuries, surgery is not something that can be learned imitating, painting is, sculpture is, but when it comes to opening a human being and endangering a life, there should be serious consideration. Just my two cents

  340. “What is my body worth?”
    OK, I must admit, I have not read a large majority of the post on here, but I I am writing this in responce to the majority of responces that I read.
    The issue at hand is not whether the person that recieved the procedure was informed. According to what I read, he was a practitioner himself. Would the lot of you be saying the same thing to someone who had a botched breast enlargement. Or a nose job for that matter?
    You can go to any licensened plastic surgeon in the world and get a procedure that may or may not go ary. Does that mean that plastic surgery should be completely outlawed?
    Any extreme body modification (including the legal kind) carries its own risks. The doctor’s who do these types of legal procedures are no more likely to give quality advice to those who recieve their treatments than unlicenced practioners.
    I am a person who has gone through a signifigant heavy body modifications. I have gone from recieving the shittiest surface piercings ever, from a piercer in my little town, to getting my tounge split by one of the top practioners in the country. Just for the record, the pro’s I have dealt with are WAY
    The reason I can’t list his name is that he is afraid of prosecution. I guess the point I am really getting at is, how much does the license these so called “professional’s” have.

  341. “What is my body worth?”
    All right, I must admit, I have not read all of the responses posted in this listing. I making this comment in reply to the gist of the opinions posted.
    I think the majority of you who have submitted have missed the point. You see the pictures posted and you cringe. What if all the plastic surgeons in the world posted all their botched procedures? Do you really think that every licensed doctor is infallible?
    The answer is that they are not. There is risk in any medical procedure, outside of anyone’s judgment, including the doctor’s and the patient’s. Both parties need to be well informed.
    I can’t tell you every breast enlargement and nose job patient know exactly what to expect from the procedure. I can’t tell you every plastic surgeon does their best to make the risks apparent to their patients. What I can tell you is that I have been through numerous body modification procedures, large and small. I have dealt with anything from shitty surface piercing’s (from a practitioner in my little town), to a tongue split from one of the best in the business (I could tell you his name, but he is afraid of prosecution, which should illustrate my point). Each procedure, despite its ups and down’s, was a learning experience, and throughout it all, the people doing the procedures either warned me of their ignorance, or gave me the best guidance possible. Better than any MD I had ever been to. It was MY decision to have it done. Whether they were honest or not, I was a big boy, and made my own decision’s based on logical inferences. Whoa, I know pesonal judgement is pretty out of style. Call me old fashioned, but I still place some weight in it…
    Are you all really so brainwashed that a piece of paper given to a person by the government means more than experience? Have you lost all sense of freedom? Your body and your mind are your responsibility. THAT IS ALL YOU GET! If you don’t want freedom over that, than what the fuck is the point of freedom?

  342. Yeah, I made it through most of the comments. I’m pretty proud of myself for that. Pretty much every point has been made, and I’ve only got one thing I’d like to add;

    Shannon, please, please, do not make modblog a ‘members only’ type of thing. I love reading modblog so much, and I’ve seen some amazing and inspiring work that I would never have gotten to see here. I’ve also learned a ton about various procedures (which, by the way, doesn’t mean I’m going to go out and try them, not all us minors jump at every chance to be stupid!). Bmezine and modblog specifically are amazing resources for the community and while I understand the paid parts of bmezine and think that’s completely fine.. please don’t limit modblog.

  343. Pingback: Leukisanders! » Scarification maar dan mislukt

  344. you fuckers are freaks, and need to see a fucking therapist. That is totaly fucked and n e one putting their self through that kind of tourture if fucked in the head for doing so. Bunch of fucking emo maggots get a fucking life and a fucking hobby for christ sake!

  345. Hahahaha! Psykoscott & GWB :) But really though, eat a dick GWB. Change your name, and stop voting for fags.

  346. I dont understand why everybody feels sorry for this idiot, he did this to himself and deserves what he got.

  347. This is gross. I hope that guy didn’t get some sort of infection, but really with stuff like this, it seems like he’s asking for it. I don’t have a problem with tattoos or piercings (have some myself), but stuff like this seems to be taking it too far. Covering up for some kind of mental or emotional problem it seems like, but I can’t say cause I don’t know the person.

    I think it’s kind of disturbing that these guys just performed some kind of “back alley” surgery on the guy; I’m hoping this took place outside the US. Either way, it kind of seems like you play with fire and you’ll get burned.

  348. A possible outcome.

    First you pass a law ruling that only a doctor can perform a body mod. Of course most doctors wouldn’t do them because bod mods are not healing anything. Some (few) doctors would specialize on them, but they would be harrased by the media, and they would be more liable to lawsuits than other doctors. So anyone wishing for a bod mod would have to pay for the doctor’s med schooling and the legal risk. Bod mod would become rare and expensive, ideal for cellebrities and trust fund kids. And then it would die off of meaninglessness.

  349. i think people that do this shit are fucking faggots and i swear to you that if someone ever came to me and asked me to do that, i would shoot them in the stomach and make them suffer…who the fuck wants to hurt themself so they think they look better, i think u look like a shithead, and chances ur an emo bitch

  350. he deserves everything he got. I dont feel bad for this guy at all!!! He apparently wanted a scar. so fuck him.

  351. Jesus, I’m so disturbed I’m almost impressed by the level of ignorance on this message board. Wow, shooting people in the stomach to make them suffer, and calling them emo! You guys are so right, anything you don’t understand is fucked, and evil, and… emo I guess… (when did that become the worst thing you could call someone? but I digress…) No wonder this world is so fucked. You people are about as deep as desert mirage. If these procedures are so sick, and we, the people who do it so fucked up, what does that make you? You feel that way, and you are still looking at it. You have gone so far as to comment on it. I think that if you were so disturbed by this you would have STAYED THE FUCK OFF THE PAGE! You are all just little scared voyeurs, and I would appreciate it if you would keep your mouths shut so the grown folks with something intelligent to say could have a meaningful conversation without having to sift through your inane babble… Thank you.

  352. Just so the regular posters know: the dipshits who are posting the ignorant dribble got here like did–through ebaumsworld. It was a feature on their daily links. I’ve never been here before, but I understand the expressionism involved in body art, whatever that might be (though the removal stuff I don’t get all, to be honest). Just thought I’d let you know why the postings are so many. Later.

  353. I agree with justin. I would never do this but I personally don’t see it any different than unnecessary plastic surgery. Just because you like body art dosen’t make you “emo”. I think that all the people all here that commented saying that “they’re stupid and emo” should grow up. If it isn’t something you’d do than fine, that’s one thing, but to be THAT judgemental is ridiculous.

  354. wow, that really didnt bother me, just seems like he made some mistakes, probably shouldnt have gone to some un liscenced person, if they are liscenced, then whatever its his desicion, i dont see what everyones getting so grossed out for.

  355. so… shooting people in the stomach for doing things with themselves… Maybe you, phi, GWB anbd so on, better should nozt cross my way, would be unhappy to get first time fined by lawsuit (and even worse for serious crime) – but it would be worth all the troubles – fucking bloody ignorant dumbasses


    What a dumbass! I hope he doesn’t get necrotizing fasciitis or MRSA.

    Yeah, that looks like some real sterile technique to me.

  357. I don’t believe I over reacted in the least. I have done thing’s that if I posted the pictures I’m sure I would get the same responses (ie shooting someone in the stomach). Therefore I take these responses personally for everyone involved. I believe that if there are not serious and intelligently made arguments to these ignorant biases, which I am sorry to say are the reactions of most of the people in the world, we as a community will still be treated as freaks. When you’re a community of freaks, your arguments are null and void in the eyes of the masses and the law, and you end up dealing with the same type of legal issuses that sent shannon to Mexico (not that that wasn’t a good choice on his part anyways). Also, thanks to huayduke30 for restoring some of my faith in the mambers of this site…

  358. Thats so deep man, I think Ill go hang myself and get rope burns scarred in my neck, that would be soo cool. Yeah, then I will go and cut my liver out of my body and have some one stitch it to my stomache and then hang from the ceiling connected to large fish hooks embeded in the liver I just had stitched to my stomache. Its so artistic to scar yourself man, so deep. Lets all go cut ourselves deep smiley faces and sit around saying how deep and artistic we are for doing so. Yeah, infections and gang green are soo deep and artistic, were so deep for thinking so deeply…..and more sarcasm and so on, you fucking faggoty freaks

  359. What a douche bag. Did you not get enough attention growing up? No hippies, that’s not art. Thats the introvert standing in the corner with the rest of the goth dorks wishing somebody would notice his cool black jeans and eyeliner. Probably a smoker too, because he thinks it makes him look cool.

  360. when we lose the ability to be ourselves, we lose our reason for living.

    i’ll modify a quote here:

    “give me modifications or give me death!”

  361. Näyttää siltä että olin väärässä ja Lukas, Samppa ja Jussi olivat oikeassa. Jenkit ovat yleensäottaen idiootteja. Tosin itselläni tympäsee eniten se fakta että yllättäen alkaa tuntumaan että minun täytyisi pyytää anteeksi noiden junttien puolesta. Tai ehkä tämä on taas yksi syy lisää miksi olen ajatellut muuttaa pois tästä maasta. Kuitenkin minulla ottaa päähän että nämä tyypit ovat omasta synnyinmaastani ja me emme oikeasti kaikki ole yhtä kuunaamoja ja kouluttamattomia, voitte olla varmoja siitä.

  362. you guys need to learn about other things to do with your body instead of cut yourselves…
    emo bastards

  363. oh and justin duncan… i love how you challenge the intelligence of people who post comments on this site, yet you yourself spell members wrong.

  364. To every single dumbass who is belittling the people on this site,

    What the fuck? Are you so insecure with yourselves that you can’t let other people be who they want? Who the fuck are you? This is art, it is expression, it is the right of anyone to do with their body as they please without harassment or denigration by simple-minded dumbshits like you. So what if some people have been through some hard shit in their lives? Its none of your goddamned business if they’re not bothering you. Some people (probably you?) like to go talk about their issues with a shrink, go for it–it helps you. Maybe other people like to express their feelings through writing or painting–so what if the canvas is your own body–its more personal, it takes a shitload more courage to do it and stand up in front of fucks like you and BE! At least they are finding ways to express themselves that isn’t hurting anyone else–what about your republlican heros? Foley anyone? Yeah, fucking pedophiles acting out their issues on someone else. That, I have a problem with. Wonderful Pastor Ted? Yeah, hypocrite–probably like you.

    But that shit is beside the point–MOST people probably aren’t doing this to cope with something–they probably just like it! So who the fuck are you to tear them down? Who the fuck are you to decide what’s right? Who the fuck are you to judge? Mother fuckers. Ancient and indigenous cultures have practiced body modification for centuries–why shouldn’t it be viable cultural expression today? Oh, because there a bunch of fucking nutcase whackjobs like you who want to decide what is best for everyone–but you can go ahead and be fucking hypocrite. Assholes.


  366. Hey, GWB–just for your info–I have 5 tatoos–and that’s it. I’m just not into bashing others. I actually talk, listen, and understand, rather than judge. You have NO idea what you are talking about, but still talk–out of your ass. Way to go! How does thtat make you feel? Make you feel better about your small penis? I hope it does. You don’t know shit, you don’t understand shit, and you are shit. I’m a 30 year old middle school teacher, dumb fuck. Kind of throws your whole little tirade out the window doesn’t it? Yeah–thought so. Go climb back in your hole, fuck yourself (try switching hands so you don’t look funny) and leave others alone. Seriously–are you that pathetic? Get a life.

    PS–ancient or indigenous cultures exist today–their ways and arts are co-opted and copied by just about every artist, so who the fuck are you to say when, where and how it is appropriate to do so? Read a little–it might help. Ignorant retard.

  367. “fuck you justin ass fucking freak go fuck yourself biatch”… Are you serious? Who says shit like that? Has intelligence gone COMPLETELY out the window?

  368. Just to clear a few things up, I am a happy and well adjusted person for the most part. I had a nice childhood, and I dress completely normally. I do these things for reasons the most of you will never understand. I’m sure all of you have things that you do that I would not understand. That is being an individual and I accept that. So maybe when some people get upset they hurt themselves. I’ll bet when GWB gets upset he does things we don’t, like punch a queer or kick a dog. And just for the record, if your best attack on my intelligence is that I mispelled a word on a message board, I consider that a compliment. Now I’m gonna go smoke a fucking cigarette. (I’m just letting you guys know so you will think I’m cooler.)


  370. I know this may be too late ( I just saw the blog). I have two issues. First, among the free spirits who engage in body mods, why do so many lump everything they don’t like together and says its because of America or Americans? That’s not free-spirited, its just a different form of fascism. As far as who “controls” the industry or the art of bodymods, we went through this with tatooing years ago. It became more popular and widespread so the failures were more widely exposed, to the point that local government stepped in and regulated the practice, requiring at least minimal standards of cleanliness, age limits etc. This didn’t end the practice or make it harder to get or even more expensive. It did get the worst of the fakers out of the studio business and undoubtedly saved some clients from infections or other bad results. As bodymods become more common and accepted (it will happen) then the art and industry involved will also go through a “legitimisation phase” and end up with some regulation, it is inevitable. Now, before I get burned, Yes I believe it is “our body, our choice”. No, I wouldn’t have gone to an artist, no matter how experienced or careful, to have this done. I feel it is up to the best and most well known artists to choose which direction the art is going to take, to nurture it and prevent the negatives from outweighing the positives, their choices will determine if the art will be safe and self-regulated, or if the local goverments will step in and control it. Governments are here to stay and, short of a miracle, will get involved.


  372. I dont know if its just me but dont the pre-op scars look a little too much like a couple big dicks – i dont know

  373. Shannon, I LOVED this…

    “I own myself. I can leave myself as I am, or I can improve myself as I see fit, or I can even choose to destroy myself. It’s my decision, and my decision alone. Any law that tells me that I don’t own myself, and can’t dictate what is done to by body and by whom, is fundamentally wrong and by definition a tool of those who would enslave others. Worse yet, it belies a flawed foundation upon which true human rights cannot be built.”

    and I wholeheartedly agree. If I, or anyone else, decide to modify my body any way I see fit, by whoever I see fit to do it, so be it. To each their own.

    P.S. I think that quote would be great on a t-shirt… :D

    Viva La Mods!

  374. i think its kinda funny… you would have to be pretty stupid to do that to your self though

  375. Did anyone else see his other scar? It’s lovely.
    I’d think he has a tendency to heal like that, and the sheer size of the new cuttings exacerbated the scarring…

    I think this guy has some balls to sit through all of that… again.

    Take care all!



  378. not speak inglish, speak spanish ok|.
    La persona mostrada anteriormente tiene que ser , pero ,muy gueona ( in inglish the big stupid ),para hacerse
    tamaño escarificacion en su cuerpo. Porque no se lo hace en el cerebro, para ver si asi queda un poco cuerdo.
    Un abrazo y saludos a todos, gracias.

  379. Damn you “body modifiers” are idiots :)
    I seriously want to see your opinion about this ”fashionable” practice in a few years, 10-15 years should suffice well. (Especially those who tampered with their penis.)
    And good luck with the diseases you got from that very clean-looking project, not even wearing gloves for crying out loud.

  380. GWB- Your Mom and Dad a little too closely related? Knock off the meth dude, you’re scaring the straights…Punk Ass…

  381. Okay, no more insulting GWB.

    If you were mentally retarded with a drug problem, you wouldn’t want people to make fun of you.

  382. Something is disturbing about people that are into this shit…I’m not a psych, and I don’t believe in the social standards set by society to be true…but this shit is straight up fucked!!

    I hope for that guys sake that he doesn’t get an inffection…and he is happy with his new scar…with sutchers this time.

  383. In the U.K. it’s not illegal to perform a surgical procedure without medical qualifications on consenting adults (it is on animals though).
    Can’t really see the difference between that and breast augmentation on a moral level, except I suspect most cosmetic surgeons have a greater degree of ethical laxity. But better sterile technique.
    Also local analgesia can be dangerous, especially in excess, and fat tissue can bleed to an alarming degree.

  384. man that Justin Duncan guy is kinda a douche. agreed? yes agreed

  385. Shannon.

    This post shows that people need an option to post a comment on your post or be able to reply to a comment. Sort of like a thread system or message board. that way these hugh post would not get out of control and lose there validity after 400 posts. no matter what your thought on bastiens desicion, what matters is people wish to express themselfs, and a simpler(?) system can make it….ummmm….uhhhh… understandable… approachable… not as intimidating?

    maybe not!

  386. ooouuuuiiii….The average intelligence of the posters here seems to be close to a piece of brick. One GWB, one GG ans a few others are sufficient to drive even a class of Mr. Einsteins to this average level, rarely saw so incredible dump idiots like theses few strange things (are they humans… I am not convinced…).

  387. Pingback: Dirty Carl » Blog Archive » Scaring Is Not Always A Good Thing


  389. Pingback: DenkfabrikBlog.de » Blog Archive » Männer haben Narben

  390. I’ve commented on this entry before, but I say shannon’s updatey thing, and wanted to say that I’m glad the guy’s work came out okay. :D

  391. In response to Shannon’s editorial, I generally agree that personal freedom should be a fundamental principle of any civilized society. I also recognize, however, that in a healthy society it is sometimes necessary to place the welfare of the community above the absolute liberty of the individual.

    I believe that people have the right to radically alter their bodies if that’s what they want. I also understand that sometimes these experiments can go badly, and it will be necessary for the person to go to a hospital or medical professional. It’s a little bit like seatbelt and motorcycle helmet laws — I think people have the right to put themselves at risk, but a reasonable case can be made that by doing so, they are putting others at risk. There are only so many doctors to go around, and every surgeon who has to fix a motorcycle head injury or botched amputation, that’s one less surgeon who is available to help somebody whose injury was less preventable.


  393. wow that is one of the worse keliods I have ever seen. Some people will scar pretty bad when having flesh removal or even simple scarification however those were huge. I can only imagine the pain from the stress those scars pulling would cause. If I ever thought of getting anything like that done I would goto my friend Ryan Ouellette at Precision Body Arts and be sure to talk it all over first but seeing I am not really into the scar look that won’t happen but fuck man that shit is messed up.

    I do think the revision might have been better off being done by a plastic surgeon in a sterile operating theater instead of a scarification studio due to major infection possibilities but they at least got the tissue out but what damage was added to the already traumatized areas.

    This is my opinion only and I am not trying to say what I think has any more merit then any other persons just my 2 cents I would hope people will research whatever they plan on doing to their bodies iin great detail before doing something like that.

  394. those pictures were graphic but i have to say since i’m not going to be judged on here on what i say so i have to say that that was perrty awsome but what i don’t git is that are these people getting this for the cool scars after the healing or are these people trying to reduse the apperance of the scars that they already had.

  395. Every thing thats done as a bod mod carries risk, from a simply ear piercing to this type of work.
    This work was corrected by samppa and Lukas, and they obviously did a good job helping this man over a very difficult situation.
    Please dont everyone jump on me this is a genuine question, have samppa and Lukas got a medical background. As this seems quite a serious procedure that would normally be done in an operating theatre.

  396. LOL Now that is some funny sh-t, I understand mishaps but come on at what point do you say let a surgeon take care of it. I mean they use to cut ur leg off with a saw and some liquer but what about mixing modern with primal. As in ill take off my finger with a stone blade but if massive mishaps happen then it’s time…..

  397. No shit they should have sent that dude to dr. i read allot about the misfit dude who so many people rag on the artist just my opinion but …those peeps who did the removal fall in2 the coat hanger abortionist catagory in my book thats way to big of a massive opening to do in a shop,

  398. This just goes to show you what some scarification “artists” [aka: fucking butchers] out there will do for a buck.


  399. hello….
    esto ess horrible denuncialos noooooo…??
    upsss. weno no se que sea esto pero lo unico q se es q esta horrible oieeeeeeeee………

  400. Okay… Somehow I missed this when it was posted originally. . I actually had a discussion about the scenario with a piercer/scarification artist in my home town about a month ago, which is what made me look for the original posting… Anyway…. I just feel the need to throw my two cents in after reading over half of all of the comments posted and thinking about the whole situation…

    I just want to say that I see nothing at all wrong with what Lukas and Samppa did procedure wise. I think it is super easy for people to sit back and criticize what happened and how the procedure wasn’t performed correctly or how this individual should have went to a hospital…

    People need to remember that their client is an adult who I am sure is and was perfectly able to decide that he wanted Lukas and Samppa to do this procedure and not a plastic surgeon. It’s not like they tied his hands behind his back and forced the client to let them do this. He wanted them to. I think people to easily jump over that important factor – the client I am sure was informed of any risks involved and made his decision, and who are you to criticize that decision, or the decision of two AWESOME practicioners who are amazing at what they do to decide to help this client out?

    If you are saying in your mind “well the risks are too dangerous” let me simply remind you that many of you have had procedures done such as scarification, implants, tongue splitting, other surgical mods, etc that many people would feel should not be able to be performed by the practicioners that perform them for us. I think making the assumption that the majority of you reading this (at least the ones in the community especially) can say that they have felt before when people criticize on how a procedure was done or how it should have been done by a m.d. if at all most of us feel that we are knowingly consenting despite all of the risks and complications that could arise that we outweigh the risks with what we are to gain from the procedure.

    Okay… So maybe this is a little jumbled together, it’s been a really long day, but I think I got most of my point across :)

  401. The entire procedure looked painful I am wondering out of couriousity if the man with the keloids took anything ahead of time for the pain?

  402. SO even though this was posted like 6 months ago I really want to say a few things in regards to the comments i have read. The people hating on this procedure should not be kept from seeing anything. The deal s this…. I believe it is important for all sides to argued examined and dsicussed or those close minded people will stay forever close minded. I am in the middle. I think scarrification can be gorgeous. I also think that the people performing the work should have to go through some substantial training I also believe there should be a medical team in-case something goes wrong and for follow ups or questions. What if you have a reaction wouldnt you like to know you can see the doctor/ medical personnel who was there or has knowledge on this type of thing. I am no doctor or physcologist. I am clearly stating my opinion. I do believe how ever that this will never be accepted in most societies for years to come from a medical standpoint. So I think people who have medical knowledge and authority should educate or even if the artists became somehow cerified. I personaly enjoy most of what cutting I have seen. I am afraid to do it because I believe it is risky, and do not have desire to put my life in the hands of some one unqualified or qualified only through reputation and artisitc ability. I think if you are looking at the things on bme you sould have a pretty good idea that this isnt a childs game and this is peoples way of life. So there is no need to come and bash america for being the way they have been taught.Or bash anyone for the things they think. am assuming most people are intrigued or else they would not bother wasting their time with even viewing these pictures or bme’s website.

  403. Its me again,
    I just had some scars and lesions removed from inside of my right pec by a surgeon.
    The pain is not too bad. It was my first time that I ever been awake during surgery.

    I would like to see how Bastien’s scars doing lately.

  404. The excision of the 2 keloid scars seems quite failed. Surgeons are trained/experienced better for this kind of work. He should’ve visited a surgeon (a plastic one). See, everything concerning scar tissue is not just incising/cauterizing like body modification artists think.

  405. How is it safe for that kind of procedure to be done in an environment like that….agh, the pain!

    In the first pictures the keloids look like handles, like you could pick him up and carry him off by grabbing them, hehe

  406. Are you censoring my posts? I sent a message that hasn’t been shown in the meanwhile another has.

  407. I know its a very late post considering the date of the original blog entry. I noticed towards the end of the comments people started to get offensive in what they were posting…what is wrong with being a fag? People always put homosexuals down and use it in the wrong contex. Lukas is a great artist and I am wanting a small scarification and I wont get it done until I come across this guy. So many close minded opinions from a so-called open minded community makes me feel disapointed.

  408. Cutting into human flesh with a scalpel to fix a problem is a medical f*cking procedure, people. It should only be done by a qualified surgeon. Ever hear of shock? Did you have drugs and training and nurses and equipment to revive him if he went into shock or had any other type of complications? I don’t care how much knowledge and experience you think you have. Every doctor knows even the simplest procedure carries and element of risk (people have died from nose jobs, c’mon). That’s why surgeries are done in a hospital or surgical center and not the doctor’s garage.

  409. Look, i still think the guys (Samppa & Lukas) did a great fucking job there! The guy’s ok and as long as he’s happy i don’t really see the point in y’all making such a big fuss about if it was leagal or right of them to do it.
    I’ve been to Samppa and i’ll go back to him if he’d do me the honors of cutting me again.

  410. hi there, shannon do u know what kind of branding did that guy get in the first place? what made the keloids so big? if it was skin removal what the fuck went so wrong

  411. Was he under any sort of local or anything? That would be some fucken intense pain if you werent. AND Wouldnt you see a plastic surgeon and get a job done that you know isnt going to end up as it before? They have cut deeper than the first set so something similar is gonna happen again….

  412. i think it’s utter shit you have the nerve to NOT tell us who did this so we can avoid them like the plague. fuck you, shannon.

  413. well i dont really see what the fuss is about really

    yes they are very big keloids, and they were puting him in enough serious discomfort that he wanted them removed, so i assume he went to people who he could trust and know what they are doing rather than an unknown face. i know for a fact that i would go to my modification aritists about a misshap before i had anything done by anyone i didnt know, and if the artists were happy to carry out the procedure, and had the right know how and abiltiy to do it, then so they should :)

    it was entirerly his desision, (sp) so i dont see why all the hate to bme and the people that removed the keliods

    people should stop judging from behind their monitors

    btw i love modblog, soo pleeease never change it shannon :)

  414. Wow. All this heated discussion. I confess I made it through 2/3 of the total posts before deciding to say my little piece. I won’t bother listing my personal qualifications here as it doesn’t seem to matter tho those opposed to outside-the-system procedures, and those who know me personally know my experience.

    I just want to say that I have seen many similar procedures done–on people, animals, on corpses (long story), both within and outside of licensed facilities and done by licensed and unlicensed practitioners. These pictures have illustrated one of the best dermal repair procedures I have ever witnessed, bar none. The healthy tissue excised was minimal, and only enough to ensure healthy tissue-to-healthy-tissue suturing, and exactly as much subdermal excision to ensure no old scar tissue or dermis remained beneath the repair, where it would be trapped and encyst or ulcerate. The lack of excessive bleeding was impressive, as it clearly showed that nothing bigger than large capillary tissue was severed, and that no deep neural structures suffered damage. The fact that dermal mattress suturing was done before epidermal standard sutures clearly shows knowledge and care for cosmetic effects of scarring as well as an understanding of dermal repair stresses. Many similar repairs are regularly stapled, giving a less than aesthetic healed appearance. All in all, this work was done as well or better than a cosmetic surgeon could have done, and the aftercare and support of wound care was outstanding. This person got better care than most people getting extensive facial reconstruction get on a regular basis, not to mention that less care is usually taken with torso repairs than facial ones.

    I don’t care who did it, or where, or what official stamp was given or withheld for the procedure and it’s participants, this was a bit of well-crafted artistry in flesh repair. I am sorry he had to endure such keloiding from his original procedure for as long as it took to find a solution. I am pleased that he found someone he was happy with to fix it, and that the outcome was everything he wished for it to be.

    I am pleased that the before photos are available to see what one possible outcome of a scarification technique can be, and that the corrective measures were shown as well, as clear potential consequences are always a help in making decisions.

    Thank you.

  415. “I don’t care who did it, or where, or what official stamp was given or withheld for the procedure and it’s participants, this was a bit of well-crafted artistry in flesh repair” Posted by Black_Rose
    Yes and there are people out there who can perform closset abortions and the chick walks away just fine.But then again someones daughter is left dead in a closset somewhere …
    They may have the naturaul or hard worked skills to perform this work but what the fuck are you going to say to the person who ends really fucked up by a bad procedure …by someone who see’s this post reads ur shit an says it all good lets do it Then when the shit hits the fan theperson makes fuckin national news and now all this kind of stuff gets outlawed …
    & “and the aftercare and support of wound care was outstanding. This person got better care than most people getting extensive facial reconstruction get on a regular basis, not to mention that less care is usually taken with torso repairs than facial ones.”
    i cant find any fucking place here onthispost where they covered the aftercare and support not a single fuckin word…
    “Please take scarification seriously!!! ” I ditto that plz read and re-read up on pre/aftercare

  416. 538 posts has got to be some sort of record. So did the guy survive or what?

  417. Holy Crap Dude! It looks like a scene from the Alien movie!

    Personal Log of Leuitenant Ellen Ripley:

    “Test subject showed strong reaction to Alien Parasitic infection….death occured at 17:00:00 hours….beginning

  418. visitng a surgeon can be costly.
    It cost around $800 to $900 for my small surgery.
    lucky, My ins company ate it.

    Now, Im considering on having a scarification artist do more of my surgeries. mostly skin cut and stitching.

  419. Now, Im considering on having a scarification artist do more of my surgeries. mostly skin cut and stitching.

    Posted by ELY M.
    Brian Decker would be a top choice .from myslef to my friends we all say that he should be a a surgeon ( I have a top heart surgeaon friend and Brian has the hands and the skills if he desired to go through the schooling. His hand is rock steady smooth and his cut depth is right on mark and even throughout his whole work area.and he happens to be really cOOl and very patient ~_0

  420. i think he is a dum ass for letting that happen to him self body mod is for dum asses

  421. “i think he is a dum ass for letting that happen to him self body mod is for dum asses”
    ps on July 8th, 2007 at 9:31 am

    I think it’s pretty damn clear who the “dum” ass here is, ps. And since you’re obviously too much of a simp to get the joke… it’s YOU.

  422. Globally thousands of people die or suffer various degrees of harm each year because of procedures — both decorative/ritual and therapeutic — performed by insufficiently trained practitioners working in less than ideal conditions. The procedures don’t even have to be particularly “intense” or “difficult.” Every year Xhosa boys in Africa die or suffer irreperable harm from botched circumcisions performed by traditional practitioners in secluded settings. People die or are permanently scarred by improperly trained surgeons performing discount cosmetic surgeries in Mexico. In America, people have died from silicone injections performed by hacks in apartments and warehouses.

    When I go for a decorative procedure, a tattoo or piercing for example, I choose a practitioner because I believe them to be properly trained and qualified. The same applies to therapeutic procedures: I go to a professional acupuncturist for needles, not a body piercer.

    Surely no one is arguing that body modification practitioners, artists and business people first and foremost, should — legally, morally or ethically — be practicing medicine?

  423. My Fucking Goddess!!! I wouldn’t like to be in his shoes!!!
    I think, that the 7th and 8th pictures deserved a “disgusting +” score!!!

  424. HI there,

    I’m curious how you kept him free of infection? There’s not sterile field to speak of and clearly this kind of thing is done often – how do you prevent an infection? thanks

  425. GWB..your a fucking retard douche cunt fucker! yeah i said it, let these people say what they fucking want without you fucking sayin shit about it!!! everyone is intitiled to their own FUCKING opinion, so fuck off, let the nice people have a goodtime, nice life.. while you go ass rape your dog! you have problems man, i think that guy was right, get off the meth.. or get a girlfriend so you dont have to jack off all the time!!

  426. It might be too late for this comment since this seem to have become just a list of insults between people with different views but if some of the persons originally involved is still reading I would like to know _what_ went originally wrong (I do not see to find posts with this informations, but the list is so long and I apologize if that has already been said).

    I mean, was the original work too deep? I don’t think so as deep cut usully scar inset rather than raised. Did the scar get somehow infected during healing? Or is it just genetic? In this case would it make sense for people involved into this kind of mod to have a small cut at first the same way as people get small tattoo to test whether they are allergic to ink before doing the big work or does any cut scar differently even on the same person?

    Muuten, en ole suomalainen mutta ymmarran suomea…ja ranskaa, siis ei tarvitse kirjoitta englanniksi…

  427. Firstly all you people saying that he should have gone to a doctor.. are fucktards who have no clue what they are talking about.
    If that were me I would have done the same thing [gone to Lukas and Samppa. The reason for this is simple..It was a scarification procedure in the first place and as Lukas and Samppa are experts in this feild it makes sense and would have stayed in contact for a length of time, and secondly if he’d gone to a doctor it would have been some outrageous cost and they would have jsut fixed and ditched him with maybe one check up. So basically I think he did the right thing.

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  429. As a person who has been scarred against their wished with surgeries, I cannot understand why you would purposefully scar yourself if you had the option to not.
    He, at that seemingly older age, should have known he keloids and not to have been modded so damned heavily.

  430. Pingback: scarification body modification - Page 2 - Size Matters | Australian bodybuilding, health, nutrition and fitness forum

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  432. There’s no way that was sterile. Cutting him open like that in a non-sterile environment is highly dangerous. Was the area even cleaned before they operated? The area should have cleaned with iodine, right? And clearly it wasn’t because the iodine is brown and is obviously very visible.

  433. hahahahahaa looks like he got a dick growing in his tummy. I found this pretty enjoyable, thanks!

  434. Just found this article today – and (didn’t read pas the 200th comment or so) am left with 1 HUGE question:

    why is there no “after” (1 month/ year) picture??

    I would love to see how this repair turned out…

  435. this is borderline illegal. more like a butcher shop. they’re practically cutting almost to the bone and organs.

    these weren’t even professional surgeons removing the scar tissue. just a slice and sew job. even by their own admittance, the reason why this occurred is because they cut too deeply the first time. I wouldn’t have went back to them, I would have went straight to a lawyer. This guy now has a scar that will look nothing like he expected, even fixing it and a full refund (which he didn’t get) wouldn’t come close to compensation.

    Those spots will be sore and ache for the rest of his life. even something as simple as a shirt would cause irritation (after its ‘healed’). even by just simply turning his torso to any given side or direction will irritate it. hell, even breathing probably will quite often.

    I bet when he came in to complain they talked him into fixing it because it would leave a ‘cool’ looking stitch scar instead, and I bet the moron fell for it. even the stitch job looks horrible, uneven, and amateurish at best.

    I’m appalled at the unprofessionalism. These people need to be put behind bars.

    You wanna know why the so called ‘artist’ didn’t want to be named? because he doesn’t want to lose business. because he knows he fucked up and got lucky enough to do it on a moron who kept quiet about it because he’s an idiot. There is no risk of this if someone didn’t fuck up and cut it all too deep.

    I would never get this done on myself, but if I did I wouldn’t want it done by a bunch of high school drop outs who took a few cheap courses in surgery. Just picture it like this…people are letting people essentially operate on them that have less training time than a rat in a maze.

  436. sfc: those guys who removed the keloid, didn’t do the scarification. and stop talking bullshit as it seems that you don’t have any clue what you are talking about. it was far from bones and organs!! and this “victim” doesn’t have a keloid anymore and he’s happy. hopefully people like you stay away from body modification scene

  437. While I am utterly disgusted by this and personally don’t find most scarification pieces in the least attractive…I am genuinely curious as to what the hell this piece was supposed to be prior to the scars becoming that keloid. Does anyone know what the design was by any chance?


  439. I have an appointment to get some scarification done and was talking to my artist a few months before I created the appointment and she said that any cutting on the chest tends to get really built-up keloids that will eventually restrict mobility/become uncomfortable and that any good artist would not attempt a chest/stomach scarification…

  440. I know the time went fast and it been over 6 years since this article was written.
    I still remember this article… actually, It is one of my favorite articles that Shannon wrote.
    I have not even gotten some of my chest skins removed yet. I just gotten busy with my jobs and my hobbies.
    anyway, I wonder if there is any latest pictures of this man who got his scars removed.
    might Shannon should contact this man and get some latest pictures.

  441. Wow. I liked looking at the awesome gore but… Holy shit was he AWAKE during that? Wooow. That dude is cool. I feel sorry for him having to go through all that…

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